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Topic: Strings 4 & 5- just don't sound right |
John Fauver
From:
Louisville, KY
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Posted 16 Feb 2014 9:36 pm |
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Hope you all are doing well.
Here is my issue- when I am playing a harmonized scale on my 4th and 5th strings, for example the scales used in Jeff Newman's course on the F lever, it just doesn't sound right. It sounds just a bit out of tune.
I have checked the tuning and it is fine (using the Peterson Strobo Plus HD). The 8th and 5th string sound in tune and are fine.
Is there something I am missing- a tuning trick, technique (or lack of), is this normal- anything pointers would be much appreciated.
Thank you.
John |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 17 Feb 2014 5:18 am
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I've always held that ANY tuning chart needs tweaking for each guitar. I'd put your tuning wrench on the F lever nut and adjust that pull til it rings true. Then, once you find the tuning that sounds best on that pull:
1) reset your tuner to ET
2) observe how many cents flat of ET the F note is
3) edit your temperament to reflect the new personalized value.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 17 Feb 2014 5:40 am
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That E--F is my most finicky raise to tune. Particularly in an A+F context, and that's one change that needs fretted a shade above the fret to be in tune.
Plus, dependingg on how much experience the OP has, I would suggest searching and reading up on cabinet drop and compensated tuning. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 17 Feb 2014 5:44 am
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BTW, the 5/8 combination always sounds better than 4/5.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Les Cargill
From:
Oklahoma City, Ok, USA
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Posted 17 Feb 2014 10:41 am
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So for 4 & 5 harmonized scales, we're talking "with the A pedal down", right? Then that makes this a variation on the A+F tuning problem.
'Cuz 4&5 are a 4th, and adding the A pedal makes it a tritone, and I don't hear a lot of tritones in E9 playing outside of passing chords quickly resolving to something less dissonant. Tritones don't naturally occur in diatonic scales.
There are dim walkups now and again in certain cadences, but it's not clear to me that that is what's being referred to. |
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John Scanlon
From:
Jackson, Mississippi, USA
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Posted 17 Feb 2014 11:55 am
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| Les Cargill wrote: |
| ...I don't hear a lot of tritones in E9 playing outside of passing chords quickly resolving to something less dissonant. Tritones don't naturally occur in diatonic scales. |
I'm not sure I follow that, Les. Every dom. 7 chord contains a tri-tone, and they are very common in E9 playing. Every major scale contains the (diatonic) notes making up a dom. 7 chord as the V chord.
For example, in the key of C, a G7 chord is completely diatonic, and contains a B and an F note that - when played together as in the G7 chord - form a tritone.
EDIT to add this - the tritone also occurs in the diatonic VII chord, which in this example would be a B dim., or if you prefer the extended chords, Bm7b5 or a B "half-diminished." That's one you'd hear less commonly on an E9, but it still contains that tritone of B and F, and remains wholly diatonic.
_________________
Click here for the Index to Mickey Adams's YouTube video lessons
Insert impressive gear list here. |
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Les Cargill
From:
Oklahoma City, Ok, USA
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Posted 17 Feb 2014 1:29 pm
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Of course a dom7 contains a tritone  . A dom7 is the 7dim chord "add5". But triadic melody - "chord melody" - will involve more intervals than two-string melody.
As I read the OP, he's 2-stringing it.
I'm just trying to figure out if the original poster's *necessarily* using the A pedal down when he's talking about using harmonized scales on strings 4 & 5. My initial reaction was "he must be", but now I am not so sure.
I think that information would be obvious if I had the Newman course.
But this got me to go out and use the F lever to walk up 4&5 without the A pedal, so that's good. One personal goal this month is to use more 7dim than dom7 in stuff. |
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John Scanlon
From:
Jackson, Mississippi, USA
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Posted 17 Feb 2014 1:45 pm
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Yeah, I am not sure I follow the OP 100 percent, either, but I do have Newman's F lever course, so maybe I should just check it to understand that part. I was more replying to your comment that you don't hear a lot of tritone in E9 playing and that tritones don't occur naturally in diatonic scales. However, I have to say that playing just that tritone on only two strings is one of my favorite uses of the tritone, to imply the 7th chord, whether it be on steel, 6-string, or even (especially?) bass.
_________________
Click here for the Index to Mickey Adams's YouTube video lessons
Insert impressive gear list here. |
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Les Cargill
From:
Oklahoma City, Ok, USA
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Posted 17 Feb 2014 1:57 pm
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re: tritones - oh absolutely. I could have said that better, but I can feel people falling asleep already
I have a (foolish) prejudice that a lot of E9 steel is *strictly diatonic* and that if one a' them debbil intervals sneak in, it must be quickly replaced by something less dissonant.
Which is ludicrous, but there it is.
Re bass: - yep. Some Strat-owner/operator is wailing away on "Red House", you better have some tritones handy. |
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John Scanlon
From:
Jackson, Mississippi, USA
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Posted 17 Feb 2014 2:09 pm
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| Les Cargill wrote: |
| I can feel people falling asleep already |
I think you underestimate the nerdiness, for lack of a better word, of steel players / forum members. 
I'm now assuming the OP was doing a basic harmonized-in-thirds scale going up 4 and 5 using the A pedal and (sometimes) the F lever, which would definitely place this in the realm of an F lever tuning issue that Lane and Tom addressed first.
_________________
Click here for the Index to Mickey Adams's YouTube video lessons
Insert impressive gear list here. |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 17 Feb 2014 3:28 pm
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| Les Cargill wrote: |
I have a (foolish) prejudice that a lot of E9 steel is *strictly diatonic* and that if one a' them debbil intervals sneak in, it must be quickly replaced by something less dissonant.
Which is ludicrous, but there it is.
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I know exactly what you mean, and I came from the world of multiple passing tones and modal changes, etc. on six string.
Some of the instruction material in my possession (intro's and turnarounds) has so many of your "debbil intervals" that I can barely follow it with my ear without background tracks.
I really have to take applied theory up a few more notches and find those other notes. |
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Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 17 Feb 2014 4:12 pm
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I can't believe you other forumites haven't picked up on this ....?
How are you tuning your E to F change?
I tune mine "wicked" flat. (that's a NE word)
To temper tune my guitar, so my thirds sound in tune with themselves, I flat my B to A# change 8 cents flat. This snow balls such that my E to F change must be 18 cents flat. - very common when you combine the B to A# pedal with the E to F lever for a major 3 chord at the root fret. I roll the bar forward (unconciously} to stay in tune with the band.
There's got to be at least 100 threads here about temper tuning. Do a seach.
Pat yourself on the back - you can hear a a third hamoney really well and youv'e discovered the value of temper tuning without reading about it! |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 17 Feb 2014 4:50 pm
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...e-f raise has to be way flat!!
then use careful bar placement. |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 17 Feb 2014 10:35 pm Re: Strings 4 & 5- just don't sound right
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| John Fauver wrote: |
Hope you all are doing well.
Here is my issue- when I am playing a harmonized scale on my 4th and 5th strings, for example the scales used in Jeff Newman's course on the F lever, it just doesn't sound right. It sounds just a bit out of tune.
I have checked the tuning and it is fine (using the Peterson Strobo Plus HD). The 8th and 5th string sound in tune and are fine.
Is there something I am missing- a tuning trick, technique (or lack of), is this normal- anything pointers would be much appreciated.
Thank you.
John |
John, I would check the 4th string lower and make sure it sounds good. Play a B major triad on open strings 5,4 (lowered) and 1. Also if your C# major chord sounds good on open strings ( string 5 with A pedal, 4th string with F lever and 3rd string ) The problem is with bar placement. You may need to scoot up a bit on the fretboard when you get to the part of the scale that uses the F lever.
I use strings 4 and 5 for harmonized scales all the time. Getting the E to Eb lever sounding sweet is key along with pulling the F lever intervals by ear up to where they sound good.
_________________
Bob |
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Dan Behringer
From:
Jerseyville, Illinois
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Posted 18 Feb 2014 4:00 am
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| Don’t forget about cabinet drop. When I pull the “Eâ€s and “Bâ€s my G# strings go slightly flat. It makes it impossible to tune everything perfectly. I hope to find a solution for this one day. |
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Roual Ranes
From:
Atlanta, Texas, USA
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Posted 18 Feb 2014 7:13 am
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| Of course it could be just your ear. |
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John Fauver
From:
Louisville, KY
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Posted 18 Feb 2014 10:19 am
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| Thank you all for your input. I have some great things to work with now. It is always much appreciated. |
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