Black Box question/discussion

Brad Sarno · From: St. Louis, MO USA

Question from another thread: "Brad, Just a question about your Black Box. Given that it is basically an impedance
matching device with the addition of tube driven enhancement (that's my take on the function description), is it any more effective when used through a tube amp versus a solid state amp? For example: a Fender Twin, that already has tube warmth qualities or a Peavey Session 400 (or any other solid state amp)? I have a
Goodrich Matchbox 60 unit that I use with my "74 Twin (2 JBL's) & it gives a fairly subtle effect but being a solid state box that's all I expect. I'm assuming your unit is in another class altogether."

This is a good question. The main principle that I like to emphasize is that I really like the sound of a steel pickup when the very first active device it "sees" is a tube. Something special happens when the magnetic coil of the pickup has a direct and interactive relationship with a tube. So, if you plug into a pot pedal and then a delay pedal and then a tube amp, the first active device the pickup sees is the first transistor or opamp in the delay pedal, and then you have created a solid state sound. Sure, the tube amp will sweeten and warm it up and make the midrange real nice, but you still have a source that has a transistor-ish quality to it. In that case, I'd argue that if you used a Black Box right after the guitar, then you'd have a much more tube-y sound because the pickup interacted with a tube first, and that tube-y quality is retained forever thru the signal path.

If you plug into a pot pedal and then directly into a tube amp input. Then in that case, it's arguable that you may not benefit as much with a Black Box because you have the amp's tube as the very first active device, and since the tube is amplifying the pickup, the magic happens. You may still want a Black Box so you gain the buffer benefits and retain the top end clarity and prevent the cable from sucking away any tone...

And with a transistor amp, it's a no-brainer. The Black Box injects a tube-y sweetness, warmth, and midrange depth that transistors simply can't do. It can't be faked with modeling, and FET's won't do it either. Tubes just do that thing naturally.

B

Stephen Abruzzo · From: Philly, PA

Great explanation.

But....being the "dumb" kid in the class, would you be so kind as to give more examples of "first active devices" and/or "pot pedal devices"?

I use a Tri-boost, OD and Proco Rat clone. Are they considered "pot pedals"?

Last question....if I ran guitar/steel to pot pedal(s) to tube amp.....would using a Freeloader give the same benefits as the Black Box?

Thanks so much.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Just about all stomp boxes have transistors in 'em (especially overdrives or boosts: only two devices made can give gain, tubes and transistors). That means that the pickup sees a transistor before it gets to your tube amp. Unless one of those is a tube box. And then only when it's engaged.
Only a simple pot-type volume pedal (Goodrich 120, Sho-Bud, or equivalent) is a pot pedal.
If it needs a power supply or battery, it's active.
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Don Griffiths · From: Steelville, MO

Thanks for re-posting that Brad. Here is one I was going to ask .You might have already answered this. Just got my Black Box a little more than a month ago. My guitar has never sounded so good tone wise. So I'm building a pedal board/effects chain. I was going to mount the Black Box on a shelf to my right with the rest of my effects so I don't have to bend over and stick my head under my guitar every time I need to tweak a knob. But this moves the Black Box farther away from the pickup and adds a few more feet of cable. And I was thing of mounting an A/B/C box between the pickup and the BB so I could keep my acoustic,electric, and steel plugged in and switch between them so I can play all of them through the BB w/o unplugging.I'm thinking the ABC switch is an inactive device and the few feet of cable would not have that noticable of an effect. Did I answer my question correctly?
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Brad Sarno · From: St. Louis, MO USA

Stephen: Lane pretty much answered it, but just to clarify. A "pot" pedal is simply a volume pedal that only uses a pot or potentiometer to control the volume. They don't use any electricity to run. The pickup can pass right thru it and onto the amp so the tube in the amp becomes the first "active" or electronic device in the path.

Don: you'll be fine with an A/B/C box just as long as it's a mechanical, passive type. That way the 3 various inputs can pass thru the A/B/C box and into the Black Box letting the Black Box be the first "active" device and each pickup can see the tube directly. These days, I'm selling as many Black Boxes for acoustic piezo use as I am for electric and steel use. The tube works wonders on piezos.

Oh, and a few feet of extra cable is no biggie. Try to keep it under 6' if you can, and use decent, low-capacitance cable.

Brad

Stephen Abruzzo · From: Philly, PA

Thanks Lane and Brad. One last question.....if I ran guitar/steel to a pot pedal(s) to tube amp.....would using a Freeloader give the same benefits as the Black Box?

Tim Marcus · From: San Francisco, CA

the freeloader is a different animal than the black box

with the black box, you are buffering the signal so that it can drive a low impedance input (solid state amplifier for example)

with the freeloader you are not buffering - rather you are lowering the impedance in order to load down the pickup. This loading brings out different overtones from your guitar. I find that when using an impedance loader high frequencies are tamed, attack is smoothed out and the overall tone becomes "warmer"

while we are at it - an active volume pedal has circuitry in it which more resembles the black box but using transistors. A passive volume pedal acts more like the freeloader - unless you buffer the output.
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Brad Sarno · From: St. Louis, MO USA

Actually Tim, the FreeLoader does both "impedance loading control" and also buffering. There is a 9v powered discrete JFET "follower" type circuit in there giving a unity gain buffering with extremely low output impedance.

I'd say the main difference between the BB and the FreeLoader is simply the tube vs transistor thing... Both are buffering.

B

Brad Sarno · From: St. Louis, MO USA

Stephen Abruzzo · From: Philly, PA

Thanks guys...what an education I'm getting.

So Brad, what would you consider to be the optimum situation, from a tone-buffering standpoint, to use the Freeloader?

Brad Sarno · From: St. Louis, MO USA

I would first try using GOOD cable, going straight from the guitar to the passive-pot type VP. Then from there, just enough cord to get to the tube amp's input. Give that a go and dial in the best sound you can.

Then add the FreeLoader to the setup with FreeLoader knob on about 6, use a real short cord from guitar to FreeLoader, then a cord to VP, then a cord to the amp. And I would say feel free to turn the amp knobs to find the best sound you can with that setup.

Really compare the two and BE SURE that for each setup, you tweak the amp to your best liking. You decide, and please report back... Smile

Brad

Len Amaral · From: Rehoboth,MA 02769

I like bOb Lee's comment about the Freeloader as he mentioned going from guitar to Freeloader to amp and using the control on the FL as a tone control. Maybe it wasn't designed for this application but it works.

The BB is a Swiss Army knife of a device. All of the above functions as mentioned but you can also use it for recording, an electric upright bass with a peirzo
pickup. I even use it with a shure green bullet mic and harmonica.

robert kramer · From: Nashville TN

Lee Amaral - I never thought of using the Black Box for amplified harmonica. Thanks very much for the tip.

Brad Sarno · From: St. Louis, MO USA

Len Amaral · From: Rehoboth,MA 02769

Hey Robert:

A harmonica mic has a 1/4"" phone jack so why not get more warmth going through a BB.

Larry Hamilton · From: Amarillo,Tx

I used a BB for several years with an active pedal. I went steel>BB>amp....Pedal to pre in and out back to pedal. No problem. With the BB if I wanted to just lighten or darken the overall tone just a little bit the BB was able to do just that. GREAT product then I shot the works and got a Revelation. Same results, one unit. I have dialed in some pretty crappy tones but they seemed to be usuable. Just me and some rythem tracks. But yeah i do have my favorites.
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Steve Collins · From: Alaska, USA

What about when I am using an acoustic loaded with a piezo/onboard preamp? Technically speaking, this would negate the guidelines of the Black Box being the first thing a pickup 'sees', as there is active circuitry in the onboard preamp. I definitely get some tone control out of the BB in this configuration, but noticeably less than if I have a pickup going straight to the device, such as on my steel.

Stephen Cowell · From: Round Rock, Texas, USA

Brad Sarno · From: St. Louis, MO USA

Stephen is right. Once a signal has been made "active" or "buffered", the vari-z control on the Black Box doesn't do much other than maybe interact with cable capacitance. But, the tube circuit in the Black Box still has a HUGE effect on the tone quality of a piezo pickup/onboard preamp signal source. Even though it's made active by the onboard circuitry, the tube will still sweeten the highs and smooth out the midrange quite a bit.

B

Dale Kath · From: Michigan, USA

any opinions on whether using the sg black box will enhance the sound with this flow path? pedal steel, guitar, or bass guitar into small powered mixer, then into usb audio interface,and then into my computer, direct using recording software (daw)? or is this box just used for going direct into an amp for best results?
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Stephen Cowell · From: Round Rock, Texas, USA

Bob Snelgrove · From: san jose, ca

Where do you guys run your vari-z? No matter what amp/tone settings that I try, I always end up around 3:00 o'clock.

bob
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Tonu Timm · From: Estonia

12 o'clock is enough for my taste:)
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Dale Kath · From: Michigan, USA

From my experience so far, I plugged guitar and then bass guitar into BB and then into mixer and recorded with and without BB. I listened with headphones. I could not discern any difference in tonality. I plugged my pedal steel into the BB and then into a volume pedal (Ernie Ball) and then into my Peavey keyboard amp. There did seem to be a difference in tone. Not a volume boost at all, but a more rounded tone, a more even and slightly livelier tone. And the vari-z setting seems best at the 12 o clock position.
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