AF chords being out of tune

J. David Carrera · From: Los Angeles, CA

Hey ya'll

Been playing steel for 3 months and every time I play an A pedal/F lever chord (like a G on the 6th fret) it sounds out of tune.

I used to play my steel with a some strings a few cents flat and it sounded fine by myself but when I played it with other people it sounded out of tune so I went back to tuning straight up.

I've found that if I slant the bar a little bit, it helps, but only if I'm playing strings 8 6 & 5.

Any tips?

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

i'm sure others will mention this: the e-f raise has to leave the f 'way' flat to blend .
tuning straight up is very problematic for my ears.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

First of all, check that the minor chord (A pedal by itself) sounds in tune. If it isn't, retune the A pedal until it is, then fix your B pedal for the A+B major chord.

Now tune the F lever with the A pedal down to make A+F sound in tune.

When you're playing, you might have to aim a little bit sharp of the fret when you use the A+F position. That's perfectly normal. Just get used to doing it.
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Billy Carr · From: Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)

I tune the 5th and 10th strings to a C# note which is a minor. After that I tune the 4th and 8th string raises to a F note while holding the A pedal(5 & 10) down. I've found that keeping strings changed regularly helps solve tuning problems sometimes. I change mine every three weeks.

Jim Priebe · From: Queensland, Australia - R.I.P.

J. David

Have a look at B0b's copedent and cents tuning post at
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=258796 .
It's not perfect for every steel (each steel requires a slightly different temper tuning IMHO - well all the ones I have had do) but if you start there and just fine tune it as you get more experienced it will save you a lot of grief.
His lever setup may be slightly different to yours but that is immaterial - you'll figure it out.
there's a zillion posts on tuning here on the forum - some swear by the "Newman" settings but each steel varies due to different cabinet drop, string length behind the nut, what colour it is and what you had for breakfast let alone the size and shape of your ears Laughing

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Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

The biggest problem is that most of us flatten our G#s too much for the G#-C# interval to be in tune. THAT, more than the F lever, causes that chord's wonkiness.
No JI system I've seen will allow that to work well, unless you put compensators on the A pedal to pull the G#s up when the A pedal is pressed. Raising your G#s a titch from any of the "sweetened" tunings will help a good bit.
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Wayne Neal · From: Ohio, USA

I like the Newman tuning myself, it seems to work on my old MSA pretty good. I also(as b0b points out) tune my pedals/levers in combination and it works for me.

I always tune A pedal with B down. B with A down. C with B down. F lever with A down. D lever with B down.

I also play lead guitar and my dad played steel with me for years. It seemed like when I would use stereo chorus it would cause us to "clash" in tone and sound "out of tune" together.(he would sound fine alone/I would sound fine alone) We almost always set up on opposite sides of the stage and it seemed to help.
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Dan Beller-McKenna · From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA

To amplify what Lane said: if you tune the G# (strings 6 and 3) until you get the beats out, it will sound great against the open E and B (10-8-5-4). I used to do this by using the fourth fret harmonic on string 8 against the fifth fret harmonic on string six (and then on to strings 4 and 3 with the same frets). But, as Lane said, this will make it hard to get that open string 6 or 3 in tune with the C# you get on strings 10 and 5 with the A pedal (or 9 and 2 if you lower those with a knee lever). Thus, using a tuning system that puts the open G#s somewhere sharp of beatless will allow you to get other combinations better in tune.

The reason for tuning the F-natural on 8 and 4 quite flat, as bOb recommends, is that when you use the "AF" combination, that "F" is really an "E#," or the third in the C# major scale, and the middle note in a C# major chord (C#-E#-G#), and, like the open G# in the E chord, it sounds best in tune when it is tuned far flat from "straight up." "Why?" you ask: nature is a little out of tune.

Pete Nicholls · From: Macon, Georgia, USA

As a relative newbie, I had the same tuning issues as you regarding the A-F combination. Some advice given me that worked well was to use the Lozach method of tuning which basically measures "cabinet drop" and integrates it into a tuning chart. I then bought a programmable tuner and entered the data for my guitar and have never looked back. Tuning is a breeze for me anymore and I can focus on other issues! To measure your cabinet drop:
Push down on pedals A & B, Tune string 4 (E) to 440, 442 (or which ever setting you use) so that it reads "In Tune" or "Spot On" on your tuner.
Release both pedals & pick string 4. Notice the cents difference (sharp - up 2.5 , 3, 4, 5, etc...)
Insert the difference in the box in the program at http://www.lozach.com/tuning.php & click on Suite to go to the next page to obtain a tuning chart to your pedal steel.
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Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Pete, cabinet drop has no bearing on the fact that, if you leave ET for a sweetened tuning, the G# relative to E and the G# relative to C# aren't the same.
THAT accounts for the hinky chord.
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b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

This seems unnecessarily complicated. If you tune strings 5,6 & 8 so that the pedals-up and pedals-down chords are beatless, then the C# on string 5 with pedal A is a natural 4th above the G# on S6. (I can prove this mathematically if you wish - ok never mind.) Then tune the E#s (which is indeed what they are) a third above the C#s and you have a perfect C# chord. Because we are a fair way round the circle of fifths from where we began, and the fretboard is equal-tempered, the A/F chords need to be played about one third of a fret higher. (Some notes on the trombone are like that, so I'm used to it.)
If you tune straight up then everything should be equally wrong so it shouldn't be a problem. If you use a complicated compromise tuning I can see why there might be a problem.
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Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

I use a .022 wound (for various reasons) - it hadn't occurred that it might be beneficial in this respect as well.
Mine's an old pull-release D10 which doesn't flex noticeably. It had a 22W on when I got it and I've stuck with it, especially as I read somewhere that it suits older guitars (I raise it to A and that's it).
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Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

You can check this cabinet drop issue on your steel using a tuner by checking the 6th string tuning with no pedals/levers engaged, then watch the 6th string go flat when you engage A+F.

Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Jim Priebe · From: Queensland, Australia - R.I.P.

J. David

I hope this post doesn't turn into another tuning issue "War & Peace' for you. You will probably get as many opinions on this as there are players.
You will find that playing with live musicians as opposed to (digital) backing tracks and midi files requires two slightly different altered tuning approaches. Live bands are easier in a way but digital is always unforgiving. Maybe this is why this has become such an issue for beginners and others (using backing tracks) these days.

Erv
While that image you posted was valid for guitars at the time it was first published, with the advent of metal frames being incorporated into the design of many of today's guitars I think it is becoming out of date. I found it over compensates on some of them these days. It is still a good starting guide but your ear has to do the final tweaking IMHO.

The point made about string types (wound and plain) and using different gauges is also very relevant.
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Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

Jim,
I have yet to run into a metal frame guitar. Rolling Eyes

J. David Carrera · From: Los Angeles, CA

Thanks for all the input guys. I really appreciate it.

There a lot more being said than I can fully understand but I'm slowly figuring it out. I just bought a Peterson HD tuner and I'm trying out the presets. I'll probably make my own preset for my MSA once I understand this a little more.

Cheers!

Bill Duncan · From: Lenoir, North Carolina, USA

MSA's come factory tuned.
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John Sluszny · From: Brussels, Belgium

J. David Carrera · From: Los Angeles, CA

Wayne and John, which Newman tuning do you use? I'm playing a mid 70's MSA classic S10, so maybe our guitars react similarly.

My Peterson tuner came with two different Newman sweetened tunings, an older one and a newer one with the E strings tuned a little bit sharp. There's also an Emmons one in there.

Really appreciate all the help.

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

The tuning chart I posted is the old Newman chart with the E's at 440.

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

erv..when you posted tht chart i thought, 'who's erv think he is this time, god?'

then i started looking at the numbers and they're actually quite close to what i found worked as a starting place for me when i cared enough to try to lock it all in.
it's probably pretty close to what i use now....though i try to avoid tuning as much as possible.

my point is to new players. if you tune to this to start you'll probably be darn close. you can subtly tweek things from there as you play more.

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