techies to the rescue, please -- u-12 or ext. e9

Brian Lethert · From: Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA

I recently bought a 7x5 williams steel (12 string, of course).

I have spent some time looking through the tunings on the b0b site, but I would like to hear some opinions. I would like to retain some of the 'c6' style pedals that are on the guitar, but I would like to change some of them to increase my versatility for e9. Specifically, I would like to get into experimenting with other musical styles, including classical. I know that many players would recommend the c6 neck fir this purpose, but I would like to adapt the twang of the e9 neck to the other styles that I want to try. Maybe even some baroque - where speed picking probably originated.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Ques #2: This will probably label me as ignorant, but I seldom seem to use the Eb string (#2) without one either the full or half step lower. Where does this string see most of it's use in traditional steel playing.

thanks
Brian

Randy Pettit · From: North Texas USA

Brian:
I would (if not already) check out Larry Bell's website www.larrybell.org/ Then, I would do a Forum search on Larry's comments regarding U-12 tunings and setups and study them carefully. There are many other S-12'ers with different setups (Al Marcus, Pete Burak, Reece Anderson, Junior Knight, many others) as well as ext. E9 players such as b0b. Check 'em all out! I personally tune my "2nd string" to C#, and raise it D on RKL. I play a universal tuning with the top four strings as follows:
C#
G#
F#
E

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Brian,

In all likelyhood, You are going to get a number of suggestions and opinions. So I will join the fray

I played a D-10 for close to 40 yrs. However, the entire time I played it, I always had a problem with it because of my deep theory rooting when I studied music.

That dang D (9th string) simply got in my way more times than not. Also, getting used to the "bottom" on C6, I was NEVER satisfied with two separate necks when playing E9th. But because I could not come up with a single tuning that fit my likes, I chose to stick with the D-10. Albeit. not completely satisfied.

But all the while, I kept saying to myself, "There has GOT to be a single tuning that I could be happy with". So for 40 yrs, I used to chart out tunings. I don't believe in my heart, there is a tuning that I have not "tried out in my mind"

Literally thousands of pieces of paper cram my house where I have tried out this idea and that idea, etc, etc. NONE were satisfactory. And NONE I have ever seen was/is satisfactory for my tastes.

It was not until one day I was using my computer where I could draw tuning charts and make changes easily (in color), that I hit on something. It looked REAL good.

Dubious about it, I was NOT about to purchase a U-12, until I was as sure as I could be. So for several years, I played with this chart and played tunes in my mind using this new found tuning.

Finally, two years ago I made the decision to go ahead and make the plunge. THANK my precious Jesus. I ONLY wish I had done it 30 yrs sooner.

In a word, I HAVE found the U-12 tuning for ME. Certainly not for anyone else necessarily. BUT for me it is perfect. I can not tell you how very much I love it. I would NEVER ever go back to a D-10. I am 100% happy with this tuning. It serves MY purpose just like I had always wanted.

Now having said all of that, what suits me, may not fit another player on earth. And that is life. So.....

I would suggest you listen to ALL suggestions. Try them out in your mind. See if it fits your style. And very importantly, check out the sacrifices you may have to make and live with? Will this suffice in your case? Because, if it doesn't, you will have spent a lot of time, effort and money only to find out you are not happy with it.

(What else is new, huh?

)

In summation, the Extended E9th, differs from the U-12 in this fashion. One has the 9th string D in there all the time. The other one has it ONLY when it is needed. There is wide spread debate for both cases. Our forum leader has the Extended E9th. And I believe he likes it a lot.

So listen to what he says, (if he posts). This may be YOUR cup of tea. And if so, go with it. You may also want to listen to U-12 players like Al Marcus (if he posts). They make good sense also.

Whatever you do, may Jesus bless you in your quests.

carl

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 29 May 2002 at 05:52 PM.]

Ray Jenkins · From: Gold Canyon Az. U.S.A.

Carl,is your tuning a seceret?

Ray

------------------
Steeling is still legal in Arizona

Randy Pettit · From: North Texas USA

Yikes! I can't believe I forgot to mention Mr. Carl Dixon, who might just have the ultimate S-12. He's got plenty of wisdom on the subject (Sorry Carl!).

Bob Tuttle · From: Republic, MO 65738

Carl's ultimate E9/B6 universal tuning is listed in the tunings section of the Forum.

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Brian--a Larry Bell suggestion for U-12 that I have used and swear by (at?) is taking the C6(B6) 6th pedal that drops the 8th string E>D and 'normalizes' the 4th string back to E when the E>D# lever is in----taking that change and moving the 8th string change to a knee lever and eliminating the 4th string change--(hey, all you have to do is release the lever).
For me, the most significant part of this is that it makes the 8th string change accessible to E9 playing and I now wouldn't be without it.

My SetUp

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Ray, the tuning is no secret. Go to bob's web page and look up tunings under Universals and you will see it. But BEFORE you do, some explanation IS in order.

1. ONLY look at the FIRST copedent.

2. The other one is still just a prototype on a breadboard. Because of some problems, not important to this thread, It may never materialize. Which breaks my heart in to. But again Jesus NEVER promised us utopia on earth.

For those that are interested, I list below some of the things about this guitar that are differen; and why.

1. Like Jon said, I too, relocated the 6th pedal (C6th) to a knee lever. I knew in my mind that pedal belonged on a knee lever from day one. Why? It moves pedal 5 and 7 together where they should have always been IMO.

Secondly: by having it on RKR2, it permits it to be used with Every pedal and most of the knee levers. I can't begin to tell you how wonderful this is. To be playing E9th and have that 8th string go on down to a D when you need it, is very good. If you ever try it, I predict you will love it.

2. The guitar has 2 LKL's, 2 LKV's and 2 RKR's. There is simply NO way I have ever found to get everything I need without going this route. I thought it would be a bear. And RKR2 was. NOT any more. Took a LOT to get used to it. Now I am not even aware of it.

3. I do not have the C pedal. I COULD have it, BUT, I want the 5th pedal (C6) next to the B pedal. Why? because I use them together ALL the time. Further I move from A and B to that 3rd pedal quicker without a pedal in between. Certain changes I love absolutely demand this.

So what about the C pedal?

4. I pull the 4th string AND the 8th string to a F# with a LKV. In combination with the A and B pedal it gives me a psuedo C pedal. I love this. Why? because I NEVER use this change unless A and B or B is down. It gives me something to push against.

5. This guitar "splits" the 2nd string lower into two pulls. I have a knee lever that lowers the D# to a D and one that lowers it from a D# to a C# on opposite knees. I cannot begin to tell you how much I love this. I never ever got used to a half-stop feel. I now some have. I wasn't and am not one of them. So this is "manna from heaven" to me. Prais God.

6. I have a very unusual pedal on this guitar. I have NEVER seen it before. It lowers the 4th string a tone and a half. From E all the way down to C#! along with raising the 11th string to an F#. I love this pedal. I use it alone or split it with the knee lever that mimics the 6th pedal (C6). It is one fantastic change. And I am finding new things with it all the time.

7. I raise the 10th string to a B along with raising the 9th string to a D. Most U-12r's don't do this. Also this knee lever (LKL2) lowers the 2nd string to a D. Again, I can't tell you how much I enjoy this change. It gives me a full 12 string E9th chord. Fantastic!

8. RKR lowers the 2nd string to a C# (as mentioned above), raises the 9th string to a C# AND it lowers the 12th string down to A. This knee lever is wild fellas. NEVER seen all these changes on one knee lever on a U-12. But I just love it.

These are just a few of the things that permit me to enjoy a U-12 MORE than I could ever have dreamed of.

I thank Jesus for this blessing, and may our precious Lord richly bless you all,

carl

Paul Graupp · From: Macon Ga USA

Carl: Is there a typo in your tuning chart or is it something I am completely unfamiliar with ? It states: Move the volume pedal left or right. Should that be Vertical instead of volume ? This is a lot of copedent to digest so maybe I'm scaring myself. At any rate it is surely intriguing and perhaps at the next Extravaganza, you could bring the Excel out and show us it's full potential.

Best Regards, Paul

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Ques #2: This will probably label me as ignorant, but I seldom seem to use the Eb string (#2) without one either the full or half step lower. Where does this string see most of it's use in traditional steel playing.

One basic use for that string is for a decending/ascending chromatic lick based in a minor chord using the A pedal down position.
Say Em on fret 3 with the A pedal down, pick strings 3(thumb), 1(middle), 4(thumb), 2(middle), 5(thumb). Try it in both directions.
It can also be played using 2 notes in harmony, my axe is set up non standard, but I think on your steel it would be (A pedal down), pick strings 3+4, 1+2, 4+5. Again, you can go up or down with it and flow into the next chord.
Hope this helps!

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Paul,

The reference to the volume control IS correct.

So as to not confuse further I will explain:

This guitar was designed and built for the sole purpose of installing "auto-matic" switchovers on all the knee levers and 2 of the pedals. Now if that hasn't bored you to tears

, I will elaborate:

For a very long time I have been intrigued by the idea of pedals and/or knee levers being able to accomadte different pulls on command.

The first realization of this was the old Baldwin "switchover" Sho-Bud. The concept was good. But on this guitar, the engineering was quite poor. As a result, a GOOD idea went by the wayside because of the bad experiences some star players had with it.

Nonetheless, it was (IMO), and is a great idea, IF the engineering was good. So with that in mind, I sat out 30 yrs ago to find a way to achieve this. I believe with all my heart I have.

So I had Excel make me a very unique PSG with his full understanding of my plans AFTER I received the instrument.

Now to your questions specifically. IF I can ever find a way to overcome serious "cabinet drop", I will then install "automatic" switchover mechanics, that will on command, switch pedals and knee levers (specific combinations of both) so that they do different pulls. Two examples are:

1. Pedal 3 becomes the standard C pedal.

2. Pedal 4 becomes the PF pedal.

What activates this auto switching?

The volume control does it!! And how does it do it? By making use of the ONLY thing left (IMO) that is not already in use when one plays a PSG. And that is the left and right movement of a modified Fender volume/tone pedal.

Yes, the tone circuitry has been removed, and in its place, two tiny micro switches can be activated; one when the volume pedal is moved left of center and the other when the pedal is moved right of center. Thus 3 entirely different copedents. The basic copedent when in the center position. The primarily E9th tuning when in the left position. And the primarily C6 (B6) tuning when in the right position. The pedal is spring loaded to the center position.

These micro switches in turn energize tiny, silent and extremely fast servos, which shift a switchover mechanism; which changes instantly (and silently) what a given pedal and/or knee lever does.

The switchovers and all electronics are already designed and work flawlessly like a charm. But I am not going to install them until I can elinimate the severe cabinet drop my guitar has..

Two final things.

1. The cabinet drop is NOT Excel's fault. It is MY fault. I am the one that told him what to change on this guitar. He was gracious enough to do it for me.

2. IF, I never install the switchovers, little is lost. It was icing on the cake. In fact the end product was designed so that the BASIC copedent was more than satisfactory IF the switchover failed for ANY reason.

Hope that clears up the confusion Paul,

carl

Chip Fossa · From: Monson, MA, USA (deceased)

WOW!! Carl!!
Would you mind running that by us again??
There's a lot goin' on here; and you went way too fast for moi.

Good to see you're back, and your smilin' face, again.

ChipsAhoy

Paul Graupp · From: Macon Ga USA

Carl: This is like Star Trek finding an superior lifeform way out in the universe. I have used one of those old Fender foot volume/tone pedals; I think Jim Williams at Fender sent it to me in Germany while I was writing for Fretts. I never used the tone function but what you have done with it surely shows your expertise on our chosen instrument and I commend you for that !!

Now it is after midnight and I just woke up coughing again, as usual and while I wait for the medicine to take hold I thought, I'll see if Carl is still up. But I won't go back to the tunings section tonight. I need to get my beauty sleep so I'll just relax in b0b's comments about your changes and then go over there tomorrow. Thank you for being the Steel Guitar Personality you are !! I value your knowledge and friendship equally. Someday we'll get into a discussion about the old Fretts series, An Approach To Harmony. And you will never see me use a small c on your name. I know why you do that and I'm sure you know why I don't !!

Best Regards, Paul

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Brian,

The second string is incredibly valuable in classical music. As you read music, you will find that the E9th provides all of the chromatic notes in the range of the top 5 strings. Often you will need to "set up" a string of notes by engaging a pedal/lever combination and then picking a pattern.

Consider the following continuous chromatic sequence on open strings:

C# - 5th string, double raise


D  - 2nd string, lowered


D# - 2nd string


E  - 4th string


F  - 4th string, raised


F# - 1st string


G  - 1st string, raised


G# - 3rd string


A  - 3rd string, raised

A bar of baroque music will often stick to notes of a diatonic scale. Here are some C scale exercises that show how the 2nd string fits into 7 different positions on the E9th.

F#_________1___________3___________4#__________6___________8________


D#___1___________3b__________4___________6___________8______________


G#____________1___________3___________4___________6___________8_____


E ______1___________3___________4#__________6#__________8___________


B __________________________________________________________________


     e  f  g  a  f  g  a  b  g  a  b  c  a  b  c  d  b  c  d  e


 


F#____________9#______________11______________13____________________


D#____9_______________11______________13____________________________


G#________________9_______________11______________13________________


E ________9#______________11#_____________13________________________


B __________________________________________________________________


      c   d   e   f   d   e   f   g   e   f   g   a   


 


 


F#____________1___________3___________4#__________6___________8_____


D#______1___________3b__________4___________6___________8___________


G#__________________________________________________________________


E _________1___________3___________4#__________6#__________8________


B ___1X__________3X__________4X__________6X__________8X_____________


     d  e  f  g  e  f  g  a  f  g  a  b  g  a  b  c  a  b  c  d


     


F#_______________10______________11______________13_________________


D#_______10d_____________11______________13_________________________


G#__________________________________________________________________


E ___________10______________11#_____________13_____________________


B ___10X_____________11X_____________13X____________________________


     b   c   d   e   c   d   e   f   d   e   f   g

------------------

Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Brian Lethert · From: Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA

Thanks for all the great info. I'll be watching for more ideas. Also, I'm thinking of dumping the 'boo-wah' pedal. I've heard it demonstrated several times, and while it sounded interesting, I don't see myself using it often. What say ye?

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

Brian- If you are using C6. You can get a lot more use out of the Boowah pedal by adding raising the 3rd string C to C#.

Opens up a lot of new things. First it gives you a major triad 3 frets higher.

A lot of guys get this with an extra knee lever. But if you put it on the same pedal, saves a knee lever.

It also gives you a dominant 7th 2 frets below the tonic. C 12th fret, G7th 10 fret with pedal down...I find it useful .....al

Pete Grant · From: Auburn, CA, USA

An extended E9 will allow you to play guitar arrangements becuase it fills out the instrument. You can do Barouqe tunes or whatever. I play Bach's "Sleepers Awake" from a guitar transcription.

You need all the E9 strings. Don't give up any of them. For instance, the D note is the 4 of the A scale--the pedals down scale. Having a G# that raises to an A on your 11th string gives you a lot more reason to use the D because you have an A root below it. If you learn your full E neck (the 10-string version stops at the 5; the extended E9 gives you the 3 and 1 below), you can play all kinds of things on it.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Like Pete, I'm a big fan of the extended E9th. I don't feel the need for a string below the low E, and the 9th string D is real useful. I understand U-12 and can play it, but I really prefer extended E9th.

------------------

Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Pete Grant · From: Auburn, CA, USA

And the very best way to give your bass player the wrong kind of chills is to honk on that low B note, with or without the "boo wah" pedal.

Dennis Boyd · From: Suisun City, CA USA

Brian,
In reply to your 2nd question, what b0b says about the 2nd string (D#) is absolutely true. It is necessary when playing scale tones on the top 5 strings. Having the F# and D# on the top 2 strings fills the gaps left by the E major chord tones of strings 3, 4 and 5. For us slide players they provide the fingers for scale tones left out in the open chord tuning. When you want to play a scale passage quickly without sliding between notes you use the 1st and 2nd (open or lowered) strings. The D# and F# also provide a B major chord when combined with the 5th string.

My opinion about your 1st question is since you have 7 pedals you should probably take advantage of the universal tuning that is already there. Most Extended E9th tunings require less number of floor pedals to provide a complete tuning arrangement. Since you are talking about playing classical music you may want the added lower range of the B6th also. Especially if you're transcribing music written for the piano. It seems that even in todays rock and jazz music the trend is to play a lot in the bass range (i.e. 7-string guitars and 5-string basses). With the E9/B6 Universal you will still have that twang because of the E9th part of the tuning. Good luck and enjoy.

Dennis

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

I got 7 pedals on my S12 ext E9 and I don't miss that low B at all. Also on the extE9 tuning I think playing the wide grips of a triad where you move the middle note up/down 1 octave makes a lot more sense to the grip on the right hand.

I think the 2nd string (Eb) is really important and it must have a lower to C# with/without halfstop at D.
Sometimes I could even want to lower it further down to C.

Bengt Erlandsen
ZumSteel S12 7+7 ExtE9

[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 02 June 2002 at 07:20 AM.]

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

I am just the opposite from Bengt

I would lower the 2nd string to a D rather than to a C# IF, I could not have both. Reason: there is NO D up there. But there is a C# (A pedal). Plus that beautiful 9th chord (1, 2 and 6 ) I could NOT live without. Whereas I can live without the C# if I had to. Course, the best is to have both.

carl

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

Here's the text of an old post of mine showing that you can further "extend" the extended E9 and get most of what is available on C6 and more:

Here's a chart of how Jerry set up my Fessenden and how my 13 string is set up to complete the 6th tuning. Note that the open tuning, P1-P3 and ALL the knee levers are already the same as the 12 string E9 on my D-12. The C6 pedals are what I'm used to but I hope I can get used to the LKV on B6.



String  LKL  LKV  LKR  P1  P2  P3  P4  P5  P6  P7  P8  RKL  RKR


1  F#   G/G#


2  D#             D/C#             +D


3  G#                      A


4  E                           F#          +E           F   D#


5  B         A#        C#      C#              C#


6  G#   G/F#               A                   A#  A#


7  F#                                   F


8  E                                        D           F   D#


9  D              C#


10 B                   C#          C


11 G#   F#                 A                       G


12 E                               D#   F               F


(13 B)                            (G#) (C#)

The idea is that holding RKR and LKR together creates a B6 with the middle C# scale note to correspond to the middle D that a few folks are using on C6, while the 2nd string C# corresponds to the 1st string D that most people use on C6.

It seems to me that this tuning would be MUCH EASIER for an E9 player to switch to, since he/she doesn't have to lose the D string, plus he will be gaining the middle string on the 6th that is becoming popular.

------------------
Jim Smith jimsmith94@charter.net
-=Dekley D-12 10&12=-
-=Fessenden Ext. E9/U-13 8&8=-

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

I can fully agree with Carl's "the best is to have both" The C# is of course there with the Apedal down but then I would have no B-note(b7th) or a Bb-note(6th)(lower on 5th string) with the C#-note(Root) That is the one I can't do without.
My "best is to have both" compromise was to have the change on one knee-lever where I can adjust the half-stop feel on the return spring on the 9th string (same knee-lever drops 9th string D-C#)

For the question about the 2nd string without a D or C# change:
Here is an example



G major scale harmonized 


 


 1-------6---8-----------13--15-------


 2-------6---8-----------13--15-------


 3---3-----------8---10----------15---


 4---3-----------8---10----------15---


 5------------------------------------


 6------------------------------------


 7------------------------------------


 8------------------------------------


 9------------------------------------


10------------------------------------

Bengt

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

Hey Jim,
I like your 13 string tuning! I played the E9/B6 universal for over 20 years and just last year went to an extended E9. Like b0b I really prefer it. As far as the 9th string goes, I personally tune mine to C# and raise it to D with my LKL. I think if I had your tuning I'd lower my 9th to C# on the RKR which lowers your E's. I did that for awhile and it worked out pretty good. I tune my 2nd string to C# and raise it to D and D# on knee levers. It's great that we can all use different setups and get what we want out of them. I don't like standardization as it breeds similarity among players IMHO. Have a great day!! JH

------------------
Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney tuning.

Forum Index > Pedal Steel	Goto page 1, 2 Next	Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic