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Topic: "Voiced For Steel" |
David Rogerson
From:
Victoria, Australia
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Posted 30 Jan 2014 6:52 am |
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I guess this question would be more or less directed at Brad Sarno or Tim Marcus.
I am intrigued by the term "voiced for steel" when it comes to describing the attributes of a particular amp or add-on device.
If we take, for example, a standard Fender twin reverb, which I think is the workhorse default amp of the industry, & suits both 6 string & steel, what has to be done to make it MORE steel friendly? Given that the front end circuitry is the formative section, are the tone stack component values altered to accentuate more mid or bass? Is the pre-amp circuit tweaked to add more or less output? Naturally I am referring to a tube amp here & I don't expect a designer's secrets to be given away but I am curious as to what frequencies are boosted/altered to make them voiced for the steel. |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 30 Jan 2014 9:36 am
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| The primary 'voicing' involved is to cut the midrange somewhere between 400Hz and 800Hz. Fender tube amp tone stacks have this cut built in, and this cut sweeps from 700Hz to 400Hz as the treble control is turned up. Other manufacturers have their own ideas about "voicing" but most amps considered suitable for pedal steel guitar feature this cut, either designed into the signal chain or at least available via manipulation of the tone controls. |
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Tim Marcus
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 30 Jan 2014 11:00 am
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In the preamp I move up the midrange cut to allow for more low end to pass through, and to smooth out the highs.
I also tweak for slightly more headroom
in the power amp, I filter out subsonic stuff and tighten it up a bit while leaving the phase inverter "loose"
choices of components and values are very important too - part of "voicing for steel" means upgrading transformers, caps, and tubes to make the amp have more fidelity and sound sweeter when its clean
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Milkmansound.com |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 30 Jan 2014 11:19 am
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| Dave Grafe wrote: |
| The primary 'voicing' involved is to cut the midrange somewhere between 400Hz and 800Hz. |
I've asked this question several times before but don't think I've ever seen an answer: If Peavey supposedly designed all these amps over the years "voiced for steel", which presumably includes the midrange cut of which you speak, why is it still that every steel player I've ever met (myself included) still feels a need turn to the midrange knob way down (to almost off) on any Peavey amp? Shouldn't the "voicing" for steel have resulted in being able to leave that knob essentially at the 12 o'clock mark? 
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www.JimCohen.com
www.RonstadtRevue.com
www.BeatsWalkin.com |
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Tim Marcus
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 30 Jan 2014 11:44 am
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because they are solid state amplifiers
Tubes - 12AX7s in particular - have a scooped midrange on their own which suit both 6 string guitar and pedal steel guitar like none other
this is why tubes are the best sounding choice for steel guitar, always have been, and always will be 
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Milkmansound.com |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 30 Jan 2014 11:53 am
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| Tim Marcus wrote: |
| because they are solid state amplifiers |
So, Tim, are you saying that it is not possible to voice a solid state amp by cutting the midrange? That cannot be done at the factory, it must be done by the end-user on the front panel?
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www.JimCohen.com
www.RonstadtRevue.com
www.BeatsWalkin.com |
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rodger_mcbride
From:
Minnesota
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Posted 30 Jan 2014 12:47 pm
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Another rhetorical question: If the steel guitars themselves need this kind of tone adjustment, why haven't the builders, pickup makers changed things on their end? Is the instrument inherently flawed as a tonal entity?
You don't hear of other instruments: Gee I need to scoop out the midrange of that Stradivarius or wow that Tele really needs a treble cut.
Or is it our perception of how things should sound, i.e., like what's his name (fill in the blank) sounded at some point in time? Perhaps the pedal steel is caught up in and/or is a prisoner of our perceptions of tone and might explain the low awareness and perception of it as a serious musical instrument. Of course with the exception of people crazy enough to play them.
rodger |
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Mike Wheeler
From:
Delaware, Ohio, USA
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Posted 30 Jan 2014 1:53 pm
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Jim, of course it's possible to design that kind of dip into a solid state amp. Steel players like it, but other instrument players don't. So, Peavey, for instance, designed a high power amp that has an essentially flat frequency response, and put a preamp into it that was capable of pleasing the most players possible. Peavey gave steel players the tools (controls) to shape our tone as we see fit. I think they were trying to please steel players while allowing for a larger market of pickers to be happy also.
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Best regards,
Mike |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 30 Jan 2014 2:35 pm
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My steels all have their own, inherent, tone, which I like. As a general rule, I don't feel the need to scoop out anything along the entire frequency range for any of them. Thus, no equalizers in my sound-chains, just the natural round-off in speakers.
I also remove or bypass built-in subsonic filters in units and amps, as these filters take away some of my steels' characteristics at the low end that I can play on. |
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Tim Marcus
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 30 Jan 2014 2:37 pm
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| Jim Cohen wrote: |
| Tim Marcus wrote: |
| because they are solid state amplifiers |
So, Tim, are you saying that it is not possible to voice a solid state amp by cutting the midrange? That cannot be done at the factory, it must be done by the end-user on the front panel? |
I think it can be done - but as mentioned above, some amps are designed for a wide range of users. Most are, actually, but its a lot easier and more common to modify a Twin Reverb than a solid state anything 
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Milkmansound.com |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 30 Jan 2014 2:43 pm
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| Tim Marcus wrote: |
| [...]its a lot easier and more common to modify a Twin Reverb than a solid state anything |
I find solid state amps easier to modify (to my taste) than tube amps, but that may have to do with the simple fact that I left tubes behind in the late -60s and have focused entirely on solid states ever since  |
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Tim Marcus
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 30 Jan 2014 2:57 pm
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yeah - I am thinking 9 out of 10 music stores have a tech that will look at you cross-eyed if you show him a solid state amp 
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Milkmansound.com |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 30 Jan 2014 3:01 pm
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If they have been at it as long as I, they are allowed to...  |
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Marty Broussard
From:
Broussard, Louisiana, USA
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Posted 30 Jan 2014 6:08 pm
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I like this thread!!
Question: why Have I not seen an abundance of tube circuits that have Mid-Shift with attenuation/gain capability? The only ones I've noticed are on the FYD T&C and one of the Sarno products.....I think. Is it my limited exposure to tube amps? I guess I'm so accustomed to the controls on the Nashville series I'm wondering why it hasn't been done extensively on a tube design. I'm a REAL novice on tubes but want to learn more.
Thks for a great discussion.
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RETIRED
"Technique is really the elimination of the unnecessary..it is a constant effort to avoid any personal impediment or obstacle to achieve the smooth flow of energy and intent" Yehudi Menuhin |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 30 Jan 2014 6:24 pm
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| i kind of thought the quilter amps were going to try to address this 'solid state voiced for steel with tube sensitivity' issue. has anyone noticed that yet? |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 30 Jan 2014 8:26 pm
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I have found that I tend to gravitate to a flat type setting on whatever amp I am using. I do have a question about it for you guys that know. When I find my sweet spot on an amp ( in the case of an Fender Twin with 12s it would be brite off, treble 3 ,mids 10, bass 3 )I seem to be essentially flat. Am I still experiencing a dip somewhere in the 400 to 800 range ?
On my Milkman amp my settings are currently :
Brite off
treble 4 (10:00)
Mids 5 1/2 (12;00)
Bass 3 (9:00)
Where is my dip in this setting ?
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Bob
Last edited by Bob Hoffnar on 30 Jan 2014 8:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Brett Lanier
From:
Madison, TN
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Posted 30 Jan 2014 8:37 pm
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| I have a couple solid state amps that sound great with no mid scooping necessary. A Standel Custom XV and a McIntosh mc50. Both have a sweet sound like a tube amp. |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 30 Jan 2014 8:57 pm
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Whoa Brett ! Those are a couple good sounding amps. I have an old SS Standel like yours and it sounds awesome. I forgot what I did with the tone controls though. I remember them being pretty tricky. I do remember not needing to scoop anything. I can't check it now because I pulled the old JBL out and put it in my Milkman. Which BTW makes the amp Tim built me now have super powers that no mere mortal should ever have.
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Bob |
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Michael Hummel
From:
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 30 Jan 2014 9:04 pm
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Tim said
| Quote: |
| Tubes - 12AX7s in particular - have a scooped midrange on their own which suit both 6 string guitar and pedal steel guitar like none other |
Tim, you are one of the forum folks whose opinion I hold in high regard. So, before I bring out the slide rule and challenge you on this statement, I'll give you a chance to explain it in greater detail.
My suggestion would be that a quality 12AX7 is a more-or-less ideal voltage to current converter, and maybe some classic circuitry designed around it caused the transfer response to have a "mid-scoop", but I wouldn't think the 12AX7 itself has "a scooped midrange on its (their) own".
Great discussion thread, BTW.
Mike
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MSA Classic 5+4
Too many 6-strings and amps to list |
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Ken Byng
From:
Southampton, England
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Posted 31 Jan 2014 1:16 am
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| Jim Cohen wrote: |
| Tim Marcus wrote: |
| because they are solid state amplifiers |
So, Tim, are you saying that it is not possible to voice a solid state amp by cutting the midrange? That cannot be done at the factory, it must be done by the end-user on the front panel? |
Jim
The best solid state amp that I have played through (and in fact own) is the Webb 614E. It has a 3 way switch on the front, which if set to position 2 has a scooped mid range and is the preferred setting of most of the Webb owners. It does sound very 'Fender-y' for s SS amp, and is very sought after. No on-going tube costs, and 225 watts.
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Show Pro D10 - amber (8+6), MSA D10 Legend XL Signature - redburst (9+6), Sho-Bud Pro 111 Custom (8+6), Emmons black Push-Pull D10 (8+5), Zum D10 (8x8), Hudson pedal resonator. Telonics TCA-500, Webb 614-E, |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 31 Jan 2014 6:52 am
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I have two D-130F JBL's and 4 1501 Black Widows. I have a pair of identical 15 inch cabinets to compare all 6 of these speakers. EACH one has it's own tone when played through the same amp. I have one favorite 1501 out of the 4 BW's that has a perfect scoop of mids, sweet highs and punching lows to my ears. Each of the two JBL's sound slightly different to each other side by side. So, the speaker will also effect what you're hearing and can give false conclusions to an amp. The JBL's sound brighter on the top end, less mid cut and carry less lows compared to the BW's. Laying claim to a favorite brand and model of speaker, combined to a favorite amp is a crap shoot. Outside of tone, I do like the overtones, warmth, etc of a tube amp.
I also have a 1974 Session 400 that has tone (with the right speaker) that can't compare to Session 400's after that year. It has something to do with protective circuitry that wasn't on the circuit board in the first year production. The visual of the circuit board compared to the schematic confirms it.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8. |
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Tim Marcus
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 31 Jan 2014 9:19 am
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| Michael Hummel wrote: |
Tim said
| Quote: |
| Tubes - 12AX7s in particular - have a scooped midrange on their own which suit both 6 string guitar and pedal steel guitar like none other |
Tim, you are one of the forum folks whose opinion I hold in high regard. So, before I bring out the slide rule and challenge you on this statement, I'll give you a chance to explain it in greater detail.
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its true! Different brands of 12AX7 have more scoop than others. Give a call to any tube dealer and they will go into great detail about how each brand, year, and type of tube will sound in each stage of your amplifier. Here is just one small review that shows what I am talking about:
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| We found on audio test that Headroom was greater than other 12AX7's compared against and also that Noise floor was very low coming in at an average of 83dB compared with normal average noise figures for 12AX7 coming in at around 79dB. The valves sonic signature leans towards a slightly scooped mid range but very detailed and extended high frequency response and extended bass also. In Guitar application when the tubes are overdriven they respond with oodles of harmonics and really cut through the mix. |
http://www.12ax7wa.co.uk/reviews/tungsol.html
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Milkmansound.com |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 31 Jan 2014 9:52 am
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i agree that speakers play a bjg part in this situation. my older bw15's have been beat around so long they do what they're told.
there was a player named jimmy fox in sacramento who was my favorite when i was trying to learn. jimmy had the tone i loved and the chops. he had a secret way of hanging a weight temporarily on the paper of his speaker that would deform it so the tone later would come out the way he liked it. i never knew the fine details of this process, only that it seemed to work for him. |
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rpetersen
From:
Iowa
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Posted 31 Jan 2014 10:34 am
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How about the Roland 80xl cube - Don't think it was ever designed for steel - Yet, you run everything about as close to 12 o'clock as I ever have on any amp
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Ron Petersen |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 31 Jan 2014 10:40 am
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I see some folks saying that Peavey wanted to be able to market their amps beyond the limited steel market, so they made them broad enough for other instrumentalists and put parametric EQ on it so steelers could notch the sound however they wish. That's fine; I don't have a problem with that. But for years, haven't they promoted these amps (Nashville 500, 400, 1000, 112, LTD, Vegas, etc.) to us as "voiced for steel"? Doesn't seem to me that giving the steel player a knob or two to EQ the amp himself really counts as "voicing an amp" for steel.
But I'm an admitted ignoramus in such things, so I could be all wet. After all, none of those amps had the word "Steel" in their names, until along came the Steel King. So... did users find that that was the one Peavey amp that did NOT need to have it's mids cut way back, in other words, one that was truly "voiced" for steel? I think I remember Buddy Emmons saying it was the first amp he'd tried that sounded great "right out of the box". Maybe that meant with all the EQ settings straight-up?
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www.JimCohen.com
www.RonstadtRevue.com
www.BeatsWalkin.com |
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