Sho-Bud date???

David Scheidler · From: Arizona, USA

Just bought this Professional and trying to pinpoint the year (and month, if possible) it was built. I read somewhere on the Forum that these were made from 1969 to 1973. I'm guessing it's a '73 model because of the diamond inlay. Seems like the rope inlay was used mostly on the earlier models (although I did see one Super Pro with rope inlay). It has a roundfront cabinet, rack and barrel mechanism and gumby(?) keyheads (horns). Thanks!

Skip Edwards · From: LA,CA

Judging by the inlay and the screws thru the pickup, my guess is '72 or earlier.
I also think that serial #'s that started with 7 were a sort of special run, for one reason or another.

The diamond inlay of that vintage came before the rope inlay. This one has white diamonds that are spaced further apart, while the later diamonds (that they started using after the rope) were dark, and were close together, their points just about touching.

David Scheidler · From: Arizona, USA

Skip:

That's very interesting. I hadn't noticed the detail about the diamond inlay. I wonder what the special run was all about. Wonder if any of the other Sho-Bud experts would know... Thanks for your feedback!

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

that's interesting, skip. you know more than i do, i'm sure, but my professional had rope inlay and was made late 69. most all early professionals that i saw had rope inlay...not sure if i actually ever saw the white diamonds on one.

Richard Smelker · From: Winters.Texas, USA

I am a newbie but I have located some documentation on Sho-Buds from the forum and articles I have found on the internet.

According to a document I printed from the forum with Sho-Bud numbers:

January 1975 6898 7000
numbers from 7001 to 8109 are lost
8110 8210
February 8211 8395

Looking at this - probably built in 1975, but according to the Sho-Bud field guide compiled by Duane Becker, The Professional was only built from 1970 - 1973. After that the Pro-II was in production (actually starting in 1972). I have a October,1972 Professional (ser.#2715) and it has the standard rope inlays. The Professional is a 6143 model that came with 8 pedals and 2 knee levers. Mine has the extra 2 knees added and a lot of other mods.
Some pictures showing the cranks and rods might be helpful to gather more info.

Hope the info was helpful
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Skip Edwards · From: LA,CA

Yeah, Chris...you know how Sho-Bud was...they were always mixing and matching all sorts of things. Most older Professionals that I see have either the white diamond or zigzag inlay. They used alot of white diamond on the Crossovers, as well. On some Fingertips, too.
And just to muddle the waters even more...my Super Pro has the white diamond inlay.

David Scheidler · From: Arizona, USA

Richard:

Thanks for the serial number info. I think there's a Forum member who's keeping a spreadsheet document on Sho-Bud manufacture dates - Michael Y---? His replies include the phrase "Don't forget to kiss your horse". Anwyay, here's a shot of the undercarriage One of the two original knee levers has been replaced and matches the two added levers. The have the teardrop shape but they're thinner and shinier (chrome) than the original (aluminum) one. It had a Day setup and I changed it back to the Emmons arrangement.

Tom Wolverton · From: Carpinteria, CA

http://www.donblood.net/page5.php
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David Scheidler · From: Arizona, USA

Skip and Chris:

Yes, I realize that dating Sho-Buds according to inlay design is not going to work. There doesn't seem to be a lot of rhyme or reason as to why they used certain cosmetic designs on various models. I imagine they simply used whatever materials they happened to have lying around during that phase of the guitar's construction.

I usually favor the rope inlay design, but the more I look at this Professional I actually like the white diamond pattern best. It's kind of a mix between the old and new patterns - vintage with a touch of class.

David Scheidler · From: Arizona, USA

Tom:

That seems to confirm the missing serial number issue for the 7--- series.

# 6535 built 11/4/74 Mon.

# 8191 built 1/28/75 ? Tues.

According to Don Blood's list, my guitar might have been built anywhere from November '74 to January '75. That seems a bit late for the Professional models, but who knows. Anything and everything seems like a possibility with the older Buds.

Skip Edwards · From: LA,CA

The 7's were earlier...Professionals, Baldwins, and before that, if I'm not mistaken. (Why, I don't know)
Which might explain why there are no 7's in the time frame you suggest.

Michael Yahl is the person you're referring to. He, James Morehead, Ricky Davis & John Billings might know more about it. Gene Hough would be the guy who probably would know, but he's rarely seen around here these days.

Personaly, I like the mixup & matchup of parts in Buds...makes it all that much more interesting.
Sometimes I think that those who were there at the time don't even know why they did what they did. I once asked David Jackson about why they made two different sizes of Gumbys, and he didn't know what I was talking about, or that they did.

David Scheidler · From: Arizona, USA

Skip:

Michael Yahl - yes, that's him. Seems to know a lot about the old Sho-Buds. I will contact him and the others you mentioned through PM.

According to your theory of the missing 7--- serial numbers being earlier models I would go along with your guess of it being built somewhere around '72, or before. The plot thickens! I too like the mix-up of different designs and parts on the various models. It further magnifies the Sho-Bud mystique.

That story about the different sized gumby keyheads (I wasn't aware they'd done that) and David Jackson's response is hilarious - and typical. I read somewhere on the Forum where somebody had asked the people at Sho-Bud why they'd changed the older style keyhead to a symmetrical design and they said it had something to do with the size of tuners they were being supplied with at the time - meaning a theoretically larger tuner body wouldn't fit within the area below the backswung horn?? Were the newer tuners Sperzels and not Grovers??

Skip Edwards · From: LA,CA

The non-gumby keyhead first showed up on the SuperPro, and later on all models. The Super had Sperzels, but some SuperPro's from around the end of the production run had big Grovers... I think the same size ones that were on earlier Buds. Go figure. My guess for the reason they changed keyheads was $$.

Lloyd Green's famous LDG has a shorter gumby, and I remember reading somewhere that it was swapped out from a larger one to help cut down on string breakage. Lloyd's gtr has a longer scale, btw.

Los Dos Gumbys...

David Scheidler · From: Arizona, USA

Skip:

I remember reading the story about Lloyd Green's keyhead being made shorter. I thought they'd cut the neck from a 24-1/2" scale to a 24" because of the string breakage problem. Either way, in the story Lloyd said you could see the indentations in the top end of the cabinet where the tip of the keyhead was originally positioned.

I'm sure the symmetrical keyhead used less material without the horn so it makes more sense that it was a cost cutting measure. Man, you sure do know your Sho-Buds!

Douglas Schuch · From: Valencia, Philippines

Rack and barrel Professionals were built around 70 - 73.

My Pro II, #3523, was built in June '73, and yours probably pre-dates it, despite the serial number. Here is a thread discussing 7000 serial numbers:

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=224717

So, just assume your guitar is "special".

I have a '75 12-string that has that inlay (white diamond on black), but usually you see it in the Baldwin and Fingertip era guitars. I have seen it on other models through the 70's, albeit, rarely compared to the very common reverse version with larger diamonds.

Pretty 'Bud!

Doug
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David Scheidler · From: Arizona, USA

Douglas:

Thanks for including the thread in your post. That helps to clarify the serial number issue, somewhat. I guess it's satisfying to know that my guitar is "special" for what it's worth. It might make it more valuable to a prospective buyer. You never know. Meanwhile I plan to play it and eventually refinish it plus clean up the undercarriage. I'll decide at that point if I'm going to keep it. I have a single-neck Pro I on the way that may end up being my main player. Thanks again for all the detailed info!

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Regarding my comment on the link that Doug posted;
I seem to remember that it was on Gene's date thread, that he mentioned that Shot and David had reserved a series of numbers for their own use, not Baldwin's. Not positive, as I thought it was the 8000 series. But it's been awhile!
By mid, or so, '73, I believe that they were using the "barrels behind two-hole pullers" system. A very, very nice system, btw! Sometime in '74 they switched again, this time using the brass discs and nylon tuning nuts at the changer. Here's my November '74 S-10.

(I like barrels best! Endless possibilities.)

Jerry Jones · From: Franklin, Tenn.

My Jan '74 Professional R/B does not have the center mount pickups or the two screws at the end of the neck like David's. Not sure on the date of that changeover, but it looks like (looking for a better image) Lloyd's Baldwin has center mount pickups, neck screws, and wide space white diamond inlay.
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Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

My first Professional was a red 1969 guitar with wide spaced white diamonds, and screw-through-coil pickups as shown in my "hippie" photo on Nick Reed's FB Sho~Bud page.

I have an almost identical Professional now, only with zig-zag inlays. Formerly rack/barrel, it now has a Jeff Surratt undercarriage. So it's got the vintage vibe and sound but plays like a modern guitar. One interesting feature is that the coil tap and neck selector switches are located between the necks, instead of the changer endplate as is almost exclusively seen on Sho~Buds. Because of this, Duane Marrs felt it was a custom-built guitar for someone who requested that setup.

The serial no. is 7702, making it one of the "lost guitars."
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Jerry Jones · From: Franklin, Tenn.

We should start a registry/thread for 7000s series Sho~Buds. It would be interesting to see which models and years fall into that category.
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Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

David Scheidler · From: Arizona, USA

John:

Your information, along with Skip's details seems to confirm that I've got a '72 model or earlier. As a newbie, I found the barrels very easy to work with. Just loosen the set screw, grab the barrel, pull the rod out and move it to wherever you need it. I do want to reverse the racks so the barrels are facing the inside "U" and not the outside face. Makes fine tuning the changes much easier when the spring end has something more positive to catch on. Thanks for the awesome pic of your S-10. That's one gorgeous undercarriage!!

David Scheidler · From: Arizona, USA

Jerry:

Verrrrrrrry interesting! Maybe my guitar is what Lloyd's looked like before they removed the C6 neck and added the pad. I'll PM Michael Yahl and see if he has any data on the 7000 series Sho-Buds.

David Scheidler · From: Arizona, USA

Herb:

Hey, that Professional in your "hippie" photo looks almost exactly like mine!

David Scheidler · From: Arizona, USA

Richard:

Yeah, it shore is purty under there but it needs a good cleaning and re-lube job with Tri-Flow. Might even re-paint the hardware. Some of the finish has flaked off, here and there, over the years.

One thing I don't understand is why the RKL and RKR levers are mounted so dang close together. I can hardly squeeze my knee through the space between them! Definitely have to change that real soon.

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