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Topic: Return compensators |
W. Van Horn
From:
Houston, texas
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Posted 23 Dec 2013 3:27 pm |
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| I am interested in trying out return compensators but cannot for the life of me find a good description of what they are. I have been searching the forum, and the old forum. Can anyone direct me to a solid description of them, including how to install them, or diagram? Also where do you get the parts? I'm getting a Carter soon and assuming it suffers from "hysteresis" I would like to try the compensators. |
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Mike Wheeler
From:
Delaware, Ohio, USA
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Posted 23 Dec 2013 3:37 pm
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This site has explanations on all the various aspects of pedal steel operations. Just browse around and enjoy.
http://www.steelguitar.com/
_________________
Best regards,
Mike |
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W. Van Horn
From:
Houston, texas
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Posted 23 Dec 2013 3:57 pm
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| That is a great site, but I have never found anything about compensators on it. There is a brief mention of them in the ask Bud section but that's all. Maybe I'm missing it? |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 23 Dec 2013 4:42 pm
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A compensator is a pull added to additional strings to bring certain chords into tune with others.
You just add an additional bellcrank, rod and nut to a pedal or knee lever.
The most common ones are
Adding a lower to the 7th string on the A pedal, so that the F# is more harmonious with the C#
Some flatten 3 and 6 with either the A pedal or the F lever.
Ask John McClung, who has something like 11 compensators on his guitar.
THEY ARE NOT FOR CABINET DROP. They sweeten sour intervals
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Jerry Jones
From:
Franklin, Tenn.
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 23 Dec 2013 4:55 pm
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Oops. I misread "return compensators" as "Tuning compensators".
Not the same thing.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 23 Dec 2013 5:31 pm
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geez..here we go again. gotta figure out how to spend money to fix something that 'may not even be a problem'.
i mean....at least wait til you've played the steel!
you really might not need anything. most people don't. this is strangely obsessive behavior. |
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Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 23 Dec 2013 6:41 pm
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I think I'm correct in saying return compensaters are to address hysteresis. A common string/change to have a hysteresis problem is the high E raising to F. When you raise the E to F and then relax it, it tends to stay a little sharp. If you now flat the E with that other knee lever and then relax, it will return to zero. I think that's the classic hysteresis problem I've had on quite a few guitars. It's been really bad and has driven me nuts at times.
I recall my Zum had an extra rod that was anchored stationary under the cabinet. It had a little o-ring between its tuning nut and the raise finger. You would tighten or loosen the this tuning nut depending on whether it came back sharp or flat. It worked I recall. This extra tuning nut slightly lifted the finger off Its' stop. I'm not exactly sure what the theory here was but I think the o-ring was like a cushion that could compress momentarily allowing the finger to overshoot but eventually would return to zero.
Check your E string. Raise it a step and relax it slowly. If it comes back sharp, push down on the string behind the roller nut momentarily. If it comes back to zero, you have this problem. It's the roller nut sticking slightly. It's called stiction in the motion control industry.
I'm hoping I'm not letting the cat out of the bag for Frank Carter but I believe he's solved this problem simply and brilliantly. The roller nuts on my Infinity are larger than the ones I've seen on other guitars and the axle that goes through them is much smaller. Do the math - the string has more influence over the rotation of the roller nut because the radius is bigger and the friction is less due to reduced surface area contact. The Infinity has no hysteresis I can measure on any string and it has no extra compensating mechanisms. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 23 Dec 2013 7:44 pm
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| Jim Pitman wrote: |
I think I'm correct in saying return compensaters are to address hysteresis
.....
When you raise the E to F and then relax it, it tends to stay a little sharp. If you now flat the E with that other knee lever and then relax, it will return to zero. |
You are describing an under-return to pitch, not returning all the way to 0. Actually, a more common problem I hear is over-return. We hear the pitch coming back too low when it returns from a raise, and/or coming back too high when returning from a lower.
Hysteresis is effect lagging behind the cause; in other words under-return. As I understand it, hysteresis occurs in the LEFT side of the roller nut. After returning from a raise, higher tension remains (for a while) on the LEFT side of the nut, meaning lower tension and lower pitch on the RIGHT side of the nut which is the audible vibrating part of the string. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 23 Dec 2013 8:33 pm Re: Return compensators
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| Will Van Horn wrote: |
| I'm getting a Carter soon and assuming it suffers from "hysteresis" I would like to try the compensators. |
No. IMHO, just learn to string it properly and play it well. That way, you won't have to resort to an added dingus that's just something else to adjust and worry about. |
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W. Van Horn
From:
Houston, texas
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Posted 23 Dec 2013 9:20 pm
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When I said "assuming it suffers from hysteresis" I meant IF it does I'd like to try the compensators, not that I'm expecting it to. It is my understanding that all steels have this problem and in my experience they do.
Chris - I play steel for a living. The "hysteresis" on the steel I am playing right now is audible. I am sick of having to hit my e raise lever after using my e lower lever. In addition I've never had compensators of any type on my steels before. Personally I like to learn about things that I am unfamiliar with. Why should I not be curious about a potential solution to a problem? My curiosity is not "obsessive behavior" and I am not imagining the problem I am trying to solve.
Everyone else - thank you for the helpful responses. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 23 Dec 2013 9:43 pm
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The hysteresis that I described is worse if your roller nut doesn't roll freely. So make sure it is clean and oiled. Also it may sometimes help if you position the string on the tuner shaft so the string pulls straight; i.e. doesn't pull the roller sideways where it can't turn freely.
You can't eliminate all rolling resistance at the roller, because the as the string rolls, it has to bend and straighten as it rolls on and off the roller. |
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Craig Schwartz
From:
McHenry IL
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Posted 23 Dec 2013 9:45 pm
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Oh brother Is that what those are, crud , another thing to learn about, Better yet I`m leavin it all alone and hope it stays tuned forever. On second thought I do have a another guitar that does that same thing with the the E raise and lower issue, Had no idea it was fixable with whatever you call those things.
_________________
SO MANY LURES, SO LITTLE TIME.... |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 23 Dec 2013 11:03 pm
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| Jim Pitman wrote: |
| I recall my Zum had an extra rod that was anchored stationary under the cabinet. It had a little o-ring between its tuning nut and the raise finger. You would tighten or loosen the this tuning nut depending on whether it came back sharp or flat. It worked I recall. |
Right.
It works by easing the lower-scissor back to the regular stop-plate as the rubber o-ring compresses, giving the string time to adjust to the change in tension and nut rollers time to balance tension on both sides. Another, much smaller, effect is that the scissor "bounces" ever so slightly against the o-ring when landing, kicking hang in nut rollers and over changer back to even balance.
The point is that o-ring must compress enough for the lower scissor to eventually rest against the metal stop when returning to neutral. The o-ring just slows the landing down, giving tension and friction time to balance out.
As the lower-scissor pivots a little also during raises, the easing-in effect is present also when coming back from a raise, but the effect is much more noticeable when returning from a lower and that's when overshot because of hang can be a real problem.
I tested out return compensators on one of my PSGs when it exhibited an "overshot after lower" problem. It worked perfectly, but I found that reducing the friction for nut rollers on axle by reducing axle-diameter - in effect making nut rollers move more loosely on the axle - solved the overshot problem well enough for comfort on that PSG, so I removed the return compensators.
Wery thin oil on nut roller axle has the same effect on overshot caused by hang, but is of course more of a temporary solution. Useful for testing out if the problem lies in nut roller friction though.
PSGs may also have, or develop, too much friction between changer finger and scissor, causing hang in the changer itself resulting in overshot. This is one cause Frank Carter seems to have eliminated in his Infinity by getting all the angles between moving changer parts just right ... at least that's how he explained and demonstrated it in Dallas a few years ago. |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 24 Dec 2013 12:38 am
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| Will Van Horn wrote: |
Why should I not be curious about a potential solution to a problem? My curiosity is not "obsessive behavior" and I am not imagining the problem I am trying to solve.
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because at this point you don't have a problem. |
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W. Van Horn
From:
Houston, texas
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Posted 24 Dec 2013 1:12 am
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Thanks for all the info and replies y'all!
Chris - I do have a problem on the steels I already own. I mentioned the carter simply because it will be the first one ill try compensators on. If it somehow has no need for them, I'll put them on a steel that does. |
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Dickie Whitley
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Posted 24 Dec 2013 2:38 pm
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| A question if I may without hijacking the thread (although I think related), was it this issue that "keyless" PSGs had less problem with or was that something else? |
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John Swain
From:
Winchester, Va
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Posted 24 Dec 2013 2:38 pm
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| Will, it is my understanding Bud Carter lowered the strings and specially designed the changer of the Carter not to have this problem. The four I've owned always returned to pitch! Try it out before you worry. JS |
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Dick Wood
From:
Springtown Texas, USA
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Posted 24 Dec 2013 3:47 pm
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Will, I don't know your level of playing experience but in my case, I have been playing in working bands for 35 years and what you seem to be worried about, I have never found to be an issue.
If there were any problems, believe me, I would have heard it.
I've owned 4 Cater steels along with numerous others and NONE of them had any problems requiring compensators or whatever. Unless the guitar is setup poorly or misadjusted in some way, then it should tune and play ok and if not then have it checked out.
_________________
Cops aren't paid much so I steel at night. |
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W. Van Horn
From:
Houston, texas
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Posted 24 Dec 2013 6:50 pm
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First, thanks again for all the responses. Carl Dixon's explanation linked to by Jerry Jones is fantastic. The discussion regarding the topic of hysteresis and compensators going on is fantastic as well.
I need to point out that I simply posted a question about return compensators. To everyone telling me that I am inventing a problem that doesn't exist - you are off topic. If you don't hear it or have an amazing steel that doesn't suffer this problem, fantastic. But the discussion here is about return compensators - what they are, how they work, how they help with hysteresis.
I regret mentioning the carter. So lets forget about that, and in fact lets forget the initial reason why I brought the topic up and just call it an academic inquiry.
I have been looking into this topic quite a bit, and I'd like to present some evidence to those who don't believe that my e string returns sharp after I lower it.
I know what I'm hearing. Ricky Davis and Bobby Bowman have both confirmed this problem during discussion with me in the past. I have read several steel builders confirm this issue on the forum.
Here are some quotes from a post Paul Franklin made in 2006:
"This [hysteresis] applies to EVERY steel guitar made since its conception including your Fender. I started out on a Fender.
Hysteresis is when a string is raised and tuned, it returns to pitch everytime. But when it's lowered it returns anywhere from 1 to 10 percent sharp, or worse, depending on the strings variances.
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Just like with the cabinet drop the only solution is to remedy the problem with a return compensator which after the string returns to pitch on the raise, it kicks in on the lowering mechanics of the string by allowing the lowered puller to have a seperate definite stop. It is again cancelled at the touch of the raise. A compensator allows players who can hear hysteresis, no matter how minute, to completely solve that problem within ANY brand of guitar. Compensators have existed for over 36 years now."
Here's the link to the quoted topic: http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/012685.html
That's my peace on the problem. Now lets continue discussing the solution. |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 26 Dec 2013 7:16 am
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Even with good, clear discussions of the subject, confusion sets in when the different types of compensators addressing the different types issues get jumbled around (never mind all the noise caused by opinions about whether one should be discussing this at all). Makes it difficult for me to focus.
I would love to see photos of somebody's o-ring rig.
I appreciate the descriptions of the o-ring solution but for some reason I can never quite fully visualize it.
Ultimately, though, it needs a free raise hole, right?
That's not something I've got a lot of.
The attention paid here to roller nut health is very interesting. I've always taken them for granted. It never occurred to me that there might be room for improvement beyond 'good enough'. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 26 Dec 2013 7:29 am
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It needs a free LOWER hole. I'll try to take a pic of the one in my Zum.
It came with some, and they've never needed adjustment in 23 years
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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W. Van Horn
From:
Houston, texas
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 26 Dec 2013 9:46 am
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| Ah. I hadn't clicked on that because I thought it was a different thread that I've already seen. This is far more comprehensive. |
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Len Amaral
From:
Rehoboth,MA 02769
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Posted 26 Dec 2013 3:03 pm
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I agree with Lane as my Zum came with compensators also and I never had to adjust them. Maybe they were set at by Bruce when the guitar was made? Love the Zum  |
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