Playing vertically versus horizontally

Robert Todd · From: Atlanta, Georgia USA

For years I've been a position player, going to the open fret, the AB pedal fret the AF pedal/lever fret and the D lever fret to find my licks, but not really the melodies.

After a recent Top Gun session with Jeff Newman I've really begun to use both the major harmonized scale and the Dominant 7th harmonized scale up and down the neck.

a C Major would be on strings 4 and 5 or 5 and 8 and would be as follows



1D 1   3   6D (or 4F) 8D (or 6F) 8   10  11F 


1  1A  3A  6  (or 4)  8  (or 6)  8A  10A 11A

a C dominant 7th is truly and F major scale starting at C



6  8 8  11D 13D 13  15  6D


6A 8 8A 11  13  13A 15A 6

In both scales anwhere a D lever occurs you can use the F lever two frets below it.

If anyone else is stuck in the chord position rut, try this out, it will really catch your band's attention.

Sorry for the typo that P Gleespen caught the last note in the first scle requires the A pedal to pull the Bb to C. I've corrected it.

[This message was edited by Robert Todd on 07 March 2002 at 03:17 PM.]

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

FWIW, this has made all the difference to my E9 playing, and yes, I have Jeff to thank for it, too.

------------------
The "Master of Acceptable Tone"
www.jimcohen.com

Ralph Willsey · From: Ottawa Valley, Canada

I must be REALLY in a rut. I've tried these scales in different ways and they haven't made any difference for me. Could someone tell me what I'm supposed to be doing with them to make such a big change in my playing?
Thanks, RW

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Ralph:
For starters, pick two strings. I suggest strings 5 & 8. Then, using your A pedal (B to C#) and your F and D levers (E to F, and E to D#), just start playing simple melodies. You'll have to go up and down the neck, as Robert indicated, to make this work, but it's beautiful when done expressively. (Btw, I used this exact technique on the title cut of my CD, "Finally Here".) I'd suggest a very simple tune like "Shenandoah" for starters. Good luck!
Jimbeaux

------------------
The "Master of Acceptable Tone"
www.jimcohen.com

Ralph Willsey · From: Ottawa Valley, Canada

Thanks Jim,
I'll give it a try. So the idea is not necessarily to mix these two scales, but to use either one as the occasion demands, is that right?

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

The point that Ralph T. was making is that there are two scales involved, a major and dominant 7th (also called mxylodian). In the key of C, on a C chord, you would use chord runs built out of the C scale notes. When you go to a C7 chord, you would use chord runs built out of a C dominant 7th scale(which has the same notes as an F scale). But the only difference between the two scales is that, whereas the C scale has a B note in it, the dominant 7th scale (same notes as F scale) has, instead, a Bb. All other notes are the sdame. So when you build your chord run on the C7th chord, you try to work in the Bb note, instead of the B, and it will sound good resolving into the F chord that is most likely the next chord in the progression.

Andy Volk · From: Boston, MA

If it's not too much effort would you please post the actual note names for these harmonized scales? Thanks.

P Gleespen · From: Toledo, OH USA

Andy,

these are the notes that Robert has laid out in his examples:
First example (c major scale)



E F G A B C D E


C D E F G A B Bb

at first I was a little confused by that last harmony (the Bb and the E), but I think he's implying that the chord progression is switching from C to C7 there. Either that or it's a typo!

This is what he's got for the second example, to be played over a C7,



Bb C C D  E F G A


G  G A Bb C D E F

That appears to land nicely on an Fmaj Chord, giving us that V to I resolution that we all love so dearly! -Patrick

...whoops, I just realized that I may be answering your question incorrectly. If I misread your post and what you're asking is for a C mixolydian harmonized scale spelled out, than this is the answer:



E F G A Bb C D  E 


C D E F G  A Bb C

[This message was edited by P Gleespen on 07 March 2002 at 12:16 PM.]

Andy Volk · From: Boston, MA

Thanks very much! Now I can see how they lay out on any tuning.

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

Robert Todd · From: Atlanta, Georgia USA

Hey Jeff don't go getting all modal on us

Really what Jeff is talking about is what Jazz horn players refer to as modal scales. what they really mean is somo other major scale starting at somewhere other than the tonic.

C Dorian is a Bb major scale great for rock
C Phrygian is really an A major scale
C lydian is a G major scale
C mixolydian is an F
C aeolian is really a E major and great for minor chords in C

Here's a pretty good link http://www.guitarnoise.com/columns/2000/20000221.html

Dave Birkett · From: Oxnard, CA, USA

I have a question for Jeff Lampert. Do you a favorite position on the C6 neck for a bop scale?
Dave

P Gleespen · From: Toledo, OH USA

quote:

I never, ever spell it right. Maybe I will next time, but I doubt it!

That doesn't matter, just as long as you play it right!

quote:

Sorry for the typo...

The typos work in mysterious ways. That actually worked out to be a pretty nifty transition into the C7 chord, I thought! Of course, it's much more "by the book" with the typo corrected!

[This message was edited by P Gleespen on 08 March 2002 at 04:14 AM.]

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

Dave,
I assume you mean Bebop. I have 4 examples of Bebop and Dominant Bebop in the key of C, the way I play them.

1____C Bebop_decending____________________________________________________________


2_________________________________________________________________________________


3____12__11_______________________________________________________________________


4____________12___11______________________________________________________________


5_______________________12__10____________________________________________________


6_______________________________12__10____________________________________________


7_______________________________________12________________________________________


8_________________________________________________________________________________


9_________________________________________________________________________________


10___C___B___A___G#___G___F____E___D__C___________________________________________



1____C_Bebop_ascending____________________________________________________________


2_________________________________________________________________________________


3_________________________________________________________________________________


4_________________________________________________________________________________


5____________________________4__5_________________________________________________


6________________1__3__4__5_______________________________________________________


7_______1(8__3(8__________________________________________________________________


8____3____________________________________________________________________________


9_________________________________________________________________________________


10___C___D__E___F__G__G#_A_B_C____________________________________________________



1____C_dom_7th_Bebop_decending____________________________________________________


2_________________________________________________________________________________


3____12__11_______________________________________________________________________


4____________12R__11R_____________________________________________________________


5_______________________12__10____________________________________________________


6_______________________________12__10____________________________________________


7_______________________________________12________________________________________


8_________________________________________________________________________________


9_________________________________________________________________________________


10___C___B___Bb___A____G__F____E__D___C___________________________________________



1___C_dom_7th_Bebop_ascending_____________________________________________________


2_________________________________________________________________________________


3_________________________________________________________________________________


4____________________________2__3_________________________________________________


5______________________2__3_______________________________________________________


6________________1__3_____________________________________________________________


7_______1(8__3(8__________________________________________________________________


8____3____________________________________________________________________________


9_________________________________________________________________________________


10___C__D___E___F__G__A_Bb_B__C___________________________________________________

Johan Jansen · From: Europe

I once saw Rusty Young playing the steel vertically,with some camping-furniture... the title of the thread brought back that nice memory....

JJ

Dave Birkett · From: Oxnard, CA, USA

Thanks, Jeff.

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

I'm intrigued by and interesed in performing some STEEL GUITAR RAPP! Might these same scales apply to this? And, which tuning would you start in? I want to do it right!

Birney Bull · From: Savannah, GA, USA

I have a question going back to the original subject here.

That scale that Robert posted kind of messes my head up. I've been working a lot lately on learning scales, but what I'm doing uses only the "standard" chords, e.g., at the Open, A&B, A&F positions, and the minors in their vicinities.

But the scale Robert posted uses pieces of >Minor< positions for Major chord fragments, such as 1D (A Minor) for two notes of a C Major chord. Is this a common practice? With "in chord" notes scattered all over the fretboard, this could get really crazy. It seems like it would be very disorienting.

Does anyone else use this technique, and if so, what are the "standard" scales that go outside the "standard" positions?

(Of course, in Robert's scale, I see that the Minors are the relative Minors of the Majors in question. Does that make up most of the answer to my question?)

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Birney,

The information you seem to need might be beyond the capabilities of a chat group. Get some basic theory lessons from a jazz or pop piano teacher or maybe a guitar player.You need to understand the function of chords and scales. Its really not very hard but its good to start at the beginining. I'm sure somebody here knows of a good musical theory primer book if you are allergic to people helping you in person.

After you learn that stuff ,which a good teacher should be able to explain in a day or so, the thing I use is Joe Wright's Excel spreadsheet for scales.
www.pedalsteel.com
click on "products" and then at the bottom of the scales books section is the Excel thingy.

Joe's stuff has helped me more than anything in terms of visualizing scales and melodies on the neck. When a piano player wants to play in the key of C major he can just look down at the piano and pretty much be safe if he only plays the white keys. As a matter of fact the basic triad chords in the key of C ( C,F and G) are made up of nothing but the white keys on the piano. Joe's method is fantastic for transfering that infomation to a pedalsteel in a clear and comprehensive way.

If you skip the first part about learning the basic music stuff its like getting caught up in semantic arguments about the French language without knowing what the words mean.

Bob

Ray,
Most R&B and Rap artists I have run into seem to like the traditional E9 sound for the most part.

[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 27 April 2002 at 09:58 AM.]

Birney Bull · From: Savannah, GA, USA

Bob,

It's exactly

Sonny Jenkins · From: Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx

Birney I'm no expert on theory by any means but here are some considerations that may explain or justify these scales. First, the minors have their root in the major,,,that is, it does not require "additional" notes to make it a minor chord as it would a 6th or a 13th etc. The minor is just an "alteration" of the original 3 notes of the major, i.e. lower the 3rd of the major and you have a minor. In the example scale the 2,3,6 are minor but are just 2 notes of the minor chord and may or may not be the 2 that make it sound minor (enter the bass man). Its just something that you're mentally aware of as you're running these scales and still the same tones you'd be running across the neck, but by going up and down the neck you can take advantage of the uniqueness of the steel guitar. Just my 2 cents worth.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Birney,

There is no finite system or correct final answer so don't worry about it. Pick something to learn, learn it, and then learn something else. From what I have gathered from your posts you have a fragmented batch of information about music at your command but you don't understand its practical application.

I know some stuff about theory but its not that big a deal.

Turn off your computer and practice !

Bob

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

Birney,
I think I can explain the theory behind why Robert appears to be playing "fragments" at positions that are minor or something not related to a C chord. This goes beyond basic major/minor scale theory, but is actually not that complicated, and will greatly increase you range of playing options. The way it works in a C major scale C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C each note has a chord that fits it perfectly. That chord is made from notes from the C scale. The chords would be C major (C,E,G), Dm (D,F,A), Em (E,B,G), F (F,A,C), G (G,B,D), Am (A,C,E), B dim (B,D,F). Notice that each chord is made up of notes from the C scale. That means that when a song in the key of C is on a C chord, you can play ANY of those chords (or fragments) and sound fine. It also means that if the chord of the song is a Dm, you can play ANY of those chords (or fragments). Same if the chord in the song is Em, or F, or G, etc. etc. As long as the chord of the song is one of the above chords from the scale, then you can play ANY chord (or fragement) from the scale. Basically, that's what Robert did in his post. He played Am, Dm, F, G fragments in his run, but they all sound good against a C chord or any chord in a C scale. This is an extremely powerful tool, and used all the time by players who know it sounds good, even if they don't know why. Of course, when the chord is not in the C scale, you have to change what you are doing, by using a different scale. So it the chord in the song that's in the key of C goes to a B7, or an Fm, neither of which is in the C scale, then you can't use the scale C scale chords and fragments to play over it. You have to use different ones. Anyway, that's the idea. If you have any other questions, feel free to post or e-mail me.

Birney Bull · From: Savannah, GA, USA

Bob,

I >think< you understood my questions; or, at least when you said

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

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