FORWARD knee

Gil Berry · From: Westminster, CA, USA

Has anyone tried a knee lever that engages by pushing your knee forward, toward the front of the guitar? If so, how difficult was it to handle?

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

Jerry Brightman has one on his Emmons LeGrande III and says he loves it!

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Yes, I got a brochure from Emmons' about this mod about a year ago. I was wondering if anyone had it and liked it. Glad to know at least one person did. Hopefully there are others.

carl

Johan Jansen · From: Europe

Still concidering a shoulder up lever, only place left to put something...

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

Last year at St Louis,I sat down to one in the Emmons room and it seemed workable - maybe more workable than my vertical wrist lever which I'm starting to get used to.It would have to be positioned very carfully and have an easy,short throw for me to be able to use it among all my other levers.Also,it would have to be on my left knee.I remember thinking I'd set it up at an angle - not straight forward. -MJ-

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

It's amazing how much can be played without it!

I. Shudda Shuddup II

Terry Wendt · From: Nashville, TN, USA

I did it when I was 14. Thought that was how it was supposed to go. I had a Winnie Winston book and the arrows looked like "forward". It worked!

Finally I learned it was actually a vertical and changed it. Go for it! FORWARD with steel levers!

2pT

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TheEarlyDays.com

and appearing regularly...
Jimmy Crawford/Russ Hicks... and Buddy Emmons on Bass! aLotOfSpace.com

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I think that inventions to change the function of existing levers would be more useful than adding more levers. Do you ever actually use more than 5 levers in a song? What if you could switch your existing 5 levers between "country changes", "rock changes" and "jazz changes"? Wouldn't that be easier than adding get another physical movement to your playing?

I had a hard time getting used to a second LKL. Moving forward in my seat to reach it was awkward for me. I'm sure that I could never get used to a forward lever.

But a switch that changed what my vertical lever does - that is something I'm sure I could get used to.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Jerry Brightman · From: Ohio

I have remained silent and have not publicly expressed my opinion’s in regards to the current state of the steel guitar. This thread in regard to the forward knee lever I use
seems to have mixed motives and intentions as this subject has surfaced from time to time before. I usually take these threads as many other topics in stride, however, it
has now become a serious issue with me…and I’m not alone by far.

I’m going to remove all my knee levers and ask those who seem to continually insist
on posting their historic views and self appointed position, to put their bar where their mouth is. You pick the tune or songs, and we’ll see if knee levers are needed….I don’t need them…Don Helms and I played two songs on my Sunday set in Grand Rapids this past weekend…I don’t think he needs them to successfully convey his touch and present
his sound to the audience. Heck, he didn’t even have pedals. But the knee levers and how many is not my point.

The point of this is…If we continue to lock ourselves into studying the past, and insisting that “hearing ourselves talk” by way of this wonderful forum, with sometimes
narrow mindedness and hidden agenda’s, we will need to pay the cover charge for entry into the Smithsonian Institute in order to view this instrument as it will no longer be a part of music sometime in the near future.

I honor those individuals who have added their icon and place in history throughout
the past years of the steel guitar with a great deal of respect….and I really don’t care if you play 10 strings, 12 strings, or 20 strings and six necks with 10 knee levers…Where you place them is what’s comfortable for you and that’s the real important part. Sonny Curtis and Danny Sneed have opposite pedal setups as opposed to the more standard arrangements. They seem to play well to most ears including mine. Carter Steels are trying new marketing approach’s and trying to cultivate a new crop of players with the Sacred steel players. They produce a great introductory guitar to help new players get started. Reece is coming out with a new design. Do something positive, anything, to further the effort needed to allow this instrument to continue it’s existence. If it’s a new form of music, or integrating into the existing music, these are among the many choices you have control over. But we as individuals need to unite our efforts, not continually divide it.

Discussions and debates are great things to learn by, I certainly do…but please don’t become confused or stopped because some insist on dwelling on the negative or feebly trying to thwack you…or because their better at typing words on a computer..that’s easy! Take the hard road and do something about it with whatever brand you play and however you choose to set it up. I am!

Now I’m going upstairs and watch a device some claimed there wasn’t any need for.. I believe it’s called a TV.

Jerry
jerry@slidestation.com http://www.slidestation.com

[This message was edited by Jerry Brightman on 08 April 2002 at 06:25 PM.]

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

What?

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Hey b0b,
Ed Fulawka has a mechnical switch that changes the functions of a knee lever.

I saw it, but don't understand it enough to explain more.

He said he's had them for several years.

Ed's on his way to the Chatanooga show and he has a guitar with him that has this feature. Maybe somebody can check it out this weekend and explain more.

-j0ey-

[This message was edited by Joey Ace on 08 April 2002 at 08:02 PM.]

Terry Wendt · From: Nashville, TN, USA

Bravo Jerry!

I believe everything you just said! I have always believed, "If it works for you-GREAT!" with regards to steel guitar. It is nice to share "trade talk" but it also becomes frustrating when the "most beautiful sounding instrument" [my opinion] I have ever heard "gets the shaft" by illegitimate comments. Try "using your heart" instead of fancy picks, or a lever or pedal... that's how you play the steel [in my opinion]. But,... I don't play professionally

It's more fun to me that way

2pT

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TheEarlyDays.com

and appearing regularly...
Jimmy Crawford/Russ Hicks... and Buddy Emmons on Bass! aLotOfSpace.com

Danny Hullihen · From: Harrison, Michigan

Jerry and Terry, I couldn't agree with you more. Taking the "tunnel vision" aproach towards new ideas for the pedal steel guitar does nothing but guarantee we'll never see any new developments in this instrument!

I for one am very happy that guitar builders such as Emmons, Zum, JCH, and Carter are constantly researching and experimenting with new ideas for this instrument to make it better.

Granted, there are many old Sho-Bud's, Emmons, and other guitars out there that perhaps nothing new would ever replace, and I can certainly relate to that. Nonetheless, imagine, if you will, where we would be today if car manufactures stayed with old tech gas-guzzling automobiles with todays prices for fuel!

Closed-minded attitudes towards this instrument will do nothing but guarantee its eventual demise. That not only applies to mecahnical developments, but also to the realm of music in which we choose to play it in.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

FWIW,
I've sat down and played an Emmons with the forward knee lever and if fit my playing style perfectly.
A simple lift of the heel causes your knee to go forward and you have another change at your disposal.
Hi Jerry!
Pete

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Well, maybe I am a bit close-minded. I would be open to the idea of a forward lever if I thought it would work for me. But it won't. My experience with a second LKL taught me that 5+5 was my limit.

Your milage may vary.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Jerry Brightman · From: Ohio

Bobby,

I agree. I'm rather long legged and it works
a little better for me because I don't tuck up under a guitar like most players. Thanks for your support and comments.

Jerry

[This message was edited by Jerry Brightman on 09 April 2002 at 05:07 PM.]

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

I couldn't get used to having 2 knee levers on any given knee either (ie LKL2, LKR2).
The forward lever, in my opinion, is a solution to having LKL2 (for example).
To me it's simply "out of the box" thinking (which we need more of in the steel biz, eh?!).
The Crossover System is another great example of "out of the box" thinking, IMHO.

Marco Schouten · From: Amsterdam, The Netherlands

Nothing new, I've seen the forward knee levers 20 years ago.

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Steelin' Greetings
Marco Schouten
Sho-Bud Pro III Custom

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Let me start off by saying that I'm as guilty as anybody. I play a copedant that I'm positive isn't duplicated by anyone, anywhere in the world. I'm certainly not proud of that. And even though it is comfortable and versatile to me, by the same token, it's hindered me more than once. That said, let me elaborate a little.

I'm sure that there are some people who look at increasing complexity, and say it's good. It gives us new sounds, and new capabilties. Anything you want to do is O.K., after all...it's your steel, isn't it? But the issue here goes deeper than that. It's an issue of what to add/change, and what to leave "as is". Other than the synthesizer (which is totally electronic), we're the only ones in the musical world who must have constant change of their instruments. Think about that. I think that's the major reason our instrument has never really "caught on". It's also the reason that no one will ever master the thing. It's nearly impossible to master something that's constantly changing. You simply can't have all the tunings, all the changes, all the licks, and all the sounds...and there's no way you can keep up with 50,000 other steelers (not that some haven't tried).

Look at the straight guitar for a moment. A couple of hundred years ago, someone decided that 6 strings was enough. Then, about a hundred and fifty years later, someone decided to double the strings (keeping the tuning the same) and make a 12-string instrument. Things were peachy until the '60s. Then someone added a 7th string, and it was adopted by Lenny Breau, George Van Epps, and a very few others. A select few started to put pullers on a short time later, so they could mimic the moves of the steel guitar.

Now, here we are in the 21st century, and what is the "standard" as far as guitars is concerned? RIGHT! That simple, stupid, old time, stuck-in-the-mud, limited, classic throwback, the 6-string guitar! And guess what? It's the most popular instrument on the planet!!!

Do you hear people saying "we oughta add a couple more strings, we oughta change the tuning, we oughta make "hip shots" and palm pedals standard?

Frankly, no.

And how about the violin, let's add a couple strings on that one, too! And that banjo sure could use a couple more Scruggs pegs, couldn't it? And that trumpet...'ya know, it really needs 3 or 4 more valves! And them pianos and synthesizers, why stop at 73 or 88 keys...why don't it have an even hundred! And throw in some semi-tones, too!

Now, some of this is tongue-in-cheek...it's an exaggeration merely to show what we're (collectively) doing to this instrument in the name of "staying modern, and advancing" as opposed to being "stuck in the past. I personally have no qualms whatever with Crawford clusters, forward levers, wrist levers, shoulder levers, double-acting foot pedals, or what have you. I don't use them. I probably never will. But...if you want to add them, go right ahead! It's your guitar. And...when you do...you won't have to come here to the FORUM afterwards and ask..."Why don't more people play the pedal steel? Why isn't it accepted like other instruments? Why do pedal steels cost so much? Why aren't we more popular?

You see...

You'll already know the answer.

Danny Hullihen · From: Harrison, Michigan

Donny. You've made some interesting points here, and I can relate to what you're saying. However, I don't think some of us are necessarilly saying that "more" is better, or that "less" is better.

Since the begining of pedal steel guitar, there have been several design changes made to this instrument. In most cases, those design changes indeed have made the pedal steel guitar more reliable than some of the models of yesteryear. However, even if no design changes were made to the pedal steel guitar, the cost would have gone up considerably anyway simply because the cost of material and labor has gone up. This is really no different than anything else we purchase today as compared to what it cost us back then. For instance, I bought a new Fender Strat in '62 for $350.00. Compare that to what this same guitar will cost you today! Indeed, a big difference.

If I understand your correctly, you're saying that all the new developments in six string guitars have now gone by the way side, and we've gone back to the (quote) "simple, stupid, old time, stuck-in-the-mud, limited, classic throwback, the 6-string guitar! And guess what? It's the most popular instrument on the planet!!!" (end quote.) If that indeed is the true direction, then would I be correct in assuming that you feel we should all go back to the six string lap steel? This is not to say that I think there is anything wrong with the lap steel guitar. On the contrary, in the right hands, it's as beautiful of an instrument as the pedal steel is.

Compared to the other instruments you mentioned, I believe that the pedal steel guitar is still in its infancy. Here again, I am in no way implying that older model pedal steel guitars aren't any good, as indeed there are many that are better than some of the new ones. Nevertheless, if old-tech truly is better than what's being built today, then I am quite bewildered of why the steel guitar manufactures have spent so much time and money on R & D when a plank of wood and six wires would be just as good, or perhaps more importantly, "the most popular on the planet."

Regarding "price" and "popularity" of the instrument. If these issues sincerely are the reason we won't see many new commers to the instrument, then there wouldn't be any guitar builders out there bothering to try to build anything. In the 1970's, you could buy a new D-10 Sho-Bud pedal steel for around $1700.00. That was a lot of money to a lot of people back then, and $3200.00 is a lot of money to steel players today. Considering the prices of everything else today compared to then, the increase really isn't all that great, especially considering that these are mostly all "hand-made" instruments, built right here in America.

Personally, I don't think the pedal steel guitar can be compared to any other instrument, price or otherwise. The pedal steel is an instrument with a very unique personality, just as is the person who plays it. Perhaps you said it best, Donny, "it's your guitar, do what you want with it."

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Well...no, Danny. I didn't say that all the new developments in straight guitars have gone by the wayside. I'm just saying that the changes in straight guitars that I mentioned haven't made it more popular, or better (in the eyes of the majority of players). We don't have to argue this point, the sales of the instruments themselves say it all. (Evidently, either the guitar players or the manufacturers know when to quit.

)

Also, I'm certainly not against any improvements to make the PSG more reliable, lighter, stable, cheaper, easier to work on, etc.. But personally, I don't put these types of "improvements" in the same category as merely adding more pedals, and more strings, and more raise/lower capability.

I guess I could sum it up this way..."Have all the pedals and changes we've added in the last 30 years really helped us? (Collectively, that is.)

Most all steelers would answer with a resounding "YES"! But, if this is true, then we oughta be seeing some steel players get deals with the major labels, and we oughta be seeing more steelers in the bands...

Shouldn't we?

Food for thought, anyway.

Anders Brundell · From: Falun, Sweden

Johan´s idea about a shoulder up lever sounds quite innovative to me as well. BTW: Have someone made plans for male/female steels yet? The possibilities are staggering, aren´t they?

pdl20 · From: Benton, Ar . USA,

Do they make a belly lever yet,that seems to be the part that reaches the back side of my emmons first.Only Kidding guy's. not the belly,the lever.I am still working on getting my 5 knees i have now to do all they can.I love to look for new ways to use them.(don't go there) been working on the Franklin pedal 4 changes with other knees and string groups and found some new things.its all there,gotta find it.thats my 2 cents. Hi Jerry.when you coming to arkansas to pick sometime.

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Rudy

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Danny,
I agree with your points but

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

been doin' a lottta thinking about this "forward" knee lever.

And I am beginning to feel about this lever the same as I do about any "up" lever. To me they are better when used with one or more pedals already engaged. This is why I do NOT like the lowering of the B's with an up lever.

But the following changes might be good for this "forward" lever. Either raise the 4th string a whole tone (maybe raise the 8th a whole tone along with it) or raise 1 and and/or 7 a half tone. The rational here is that these changes are used mostly with A and/or B already engaged.

I find it cumbersome to raise a lever either by lifting the leg or using the floor as a fulcrum to push against. I believe I would find the same thing with a forward lever.

But others will feel differently I believe,

carl

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 11 April 2002 at 10:17 AM.]

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