Pedal Steel tone...factors and weightings

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

As we know, a steel guitar isn't exactly designed to be a resonating acoustic instrument, so the factors that have the most impact on the innate tone probably relates heavily to string gauge and metallurgy, and the pickup design and position.

(In addition, the impact of cable to the amp seems to make a far greater tonal impact than I would have expected and seems much moreso on a steel than on a six string guitar...however, that isn't an innate characteristic, neither is the amp of eq settings or speaker, etc, mostly looking for innate qualities)

Yet, I'm sure my old msa with E66 pickups doesn't sound anything like a P/P emmons...maybe it does...I don't have the opportunity to compare the tones of various steels.

On second thought maybe we should limit this to all pull designs because the PP introduces some additional resonance.

In general, though, I'd like experienced guys to chime in on the factors that make up about 80 percent of the tone, and the weightings of those factors, just in broad terms.

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

In my experience the resonance of the instrument is a very significant factor, just possibly one of the most significant factors in fact. If the guitar does not sing when it is unplugged it probably won't have much life when amplified. Different pickups, strings, amps, etc. will have some effect, but it all begins with the hands and the guitar itself...

I've a PP and a SuperPro now, and both of them sound fat with no amp at all, at least when picked with verve and elan Cool

Jon Guirl · From: Millington TN, USA

This reminds me of one of the only Scotties Conventions I went to, in 1986 when they had a segment called 'Cream Of The Crap' LOL

IIRC, it was Big E, Randy Beavers, Jeff Newman and probably another picker or two but I'm sure other guys here were there too and will have better rememberence than what manages to squeak out of my foggy memory banks.

But anyway, they had the absolute worst pedal and lap steels guitars you could imagine that Scotty and who knows who else dug out of garage sales and pawn shops and who knows wherever else - all they did was clean them up, tune 'em, and let the guys above play them.

They clowned around, played them behind their head, and upside down, everything you can think of - They sounded GREAT - as they always do. The point of the exercise was to point out that $10,000 worth of equipment will not give you that tone you want, it comes 95% from your hands and 5% from the equipment. It was funny and interesting, but it really illustrated the point that most of the sound comes from the player.

Anybody else there too that remembers Cream Of The Crap?

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

IMHO, the thing players have to get past is that just because they don't like a particular sound or tone that it does not mean that it's really a "bad" tone. Most everyone has likes and dislikes, but I think there's entirely too many players (even some famous ones) who look down their nose at someone else because they happen to like something different, or prefer another brand, or tone. Shocked

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Steve Spitz · From: New Orleans, LA, USA

Resonance, in my opinion, is a key factor influencing tone . It may be difficult to quantify precisely, but we all can play a non-amplified steel and determine its resonance.

All modern steels are capable , but some of mine (and I'm fortunate to own some great instruments) have much more resonance than others.

When I first set up my Zum hybrid, I played it un-amplified. I could tell it was going to be special, due to the resonance, particularly the clarity of the lowest strings on C6.

I'd like to avoid a "this brand vs that brand" mindset, but my thoughts were confirmed when I plugged it in for the first time. Greater resonance contributes to tone.

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

I (too) agree with Dave Grafe's description.

Inherent resonance and timbre do in my opinion make all the difference between an average and a great instrument.

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

I have been told that Buddy Emmons would strum the strings on a guitar while holding a leg and would determine it's sound qualities by the vibrations he felt.

Thomas Butler · From: Robbinsdale, MN

I saw Verve and Elan play in Crookston, Minn in the late 60's - amazing band.
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Paul Brainard · From: Portland OR

I've had steels that had very resonant and/or loud tone when played unplugged, but that doesn't always seem to relate directly to the tone through a pickup & amp. Maybe it depends on having the right electronics to be able to capitalize on the frequencies produced by that particular instrument.

Often I find that if I listen back to some recording I made on a steel I didn't think was the best sounding one I ever had, in retrospect it sounds great (my playing notwithstanding. . .) So much of it is expectations & context. Another thing I notice is that the sound you are getting up close isn't the same was what comes out in the room, through a PA, or through a recording (& mixing. . ) chain. Sometimes you might need a tone that you don't really love in order to sound like what you want out front.

But I digress. . . I did want to say that I recently got a Fessy D-10 that sounds amazing, noticeably different (& better!) than any other I have owned - and I have had several of them. I always loved the sound of Jerry's guitars. But somehow this one is even more full, warm, buttery, whatever. Even side-by-side with my other one (S-10), with the same pickup, through all the same pedals & amp. So I have been wondering what accounts for this difference - there are a couple of things that I can identify, and I wonder which of them might be part of the explanation:

1. The D-10 is a wood cabinet (by Mark Giles I believe.) I have had a wood D-10 Fessenden before, which also sounded especially great, although in a slightly different way. This one I notice has a veneer of quilted/tiger maple, about 3/16" thick (wood, not mica) on top of what I assume is hard rock maple @ 1/2". Those are pretty thick walls, which his guitars are known for. Also makes me think of the way the top of a Les Paul is constructed - I'm no luthier, but I suppose the density & grain of the wood bring some acoustic properties to the instrument, and maybe having a layer like that locked on top of the main slab allows the vibrations to travel differently through the body & on the surface?

2. This steel has had a bunch of mods/upgrades by a previous owner, including helper springs on the changer (Jerry's changers have holes for them but he never seems to use them) and nylon bushings and return springs on the cross shafts, as well as nylon stops everywhere. All of which takes a lot of play & rattle out of the system and gives this steel some of the smoothest action I have ever felt. I suspect having all the moving parts pre-loaded with tension both ways may also help out with transmitting the string vibrations to the body.

In any case, whenever I sit down at this guitar I find that it produces a fat, juicy tone that I love, almost effortlessly. So I think clearly the steel's construction can have a substantial influence on its tone. But of course in the end I can identify my playing on any instrument I have ever owned, and I think we all work towards a certain personal sound and style and probably adjust our playing (and amp settings) to get close to it on any setup we might be using. Maybe it's just a matter of how much the instrument helps us along in that direction.

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

To clarify, a steel guitar doesn't use the resonating formula of a thin spruce top and light bracing as on an acoustic guitar or the soundboard of a piano.

What I see is thick hard heavy wood fastened to a metal frame or rails. Of course there is always resonance, however unintended, and are the particularly good sounding guitars just the luck of circumstance?

If resonance is a key factor, and I hope it is, what are the intentional designs that manage the resonant properties?

Ken Byng · From: Southampton, England

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Paul Brainard · From: Portland OR

Tom - compare the resonance of almost any lap steel to almost any pedal steel. I think there is widespread consensus (oops did I say that?) on the idea that a lot of tone/resonance is lost in the changer - instead of a solid bridge mounted to the body of the guitar, you have each string connected to a thin metal finger mounted on a metal shaft sitting on two feet that are screwed onto the top of the instrument. So to a large degree I think it's a matter of mitigating the loss of string vibrations through all of these transitions & bottlenecks.

There have been a lot of design ideas (& accidents) to help overcome this - steel vs. aluminum, fingers coming to rest against the body of the guitar (Carter's BCT was a resurrection of this idea), thicker/solid fingers, round cross-shafts, milled necks, solid tuning heads, independent nuts, brass rollers, wood necks, how tightly things are screwed to the guitar, bushings, springs. . . the particular mixture of all of these solutions has to be a lot of what gives each brand its character. Plus the construction of the body - and let's not forget, what color it is!

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Which makes me wonder how much of the Bud Tone comes from 3 distinctive features:
1) Buds have extraordinarily narrow fingers, with axle supports between each,
2) That hollow cast tailpiece with so many axle supports and large ring of contact with the deck. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't ring like a bell, due to its rectangular shape and the fact that I've never seen an aluminum bell.
3) The fact that the tailpiece and keyhead squeeze the hell outta the neck. Try pulling the neck when you have the strings under tension.
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Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

The contact pressure between those narrow fingers and the axle would be nearly 2x higher than on a full width finger. More wear, but more direct contact with axle, less dampening axle grease, and those interfinger axle supports must put more vibration back to the body rather than causing sympathetic vibration in adjacent strings.

Paul Brainard · From: Portland OR

Exactly, I'm sure all of those features are part of the equation. Also - much like playing - it may be a matter of what is left out as much as what is in there, tonally speaking. It may be that just the right frequencies are impeded by one aspect or other of the design & that allows others to come through and give the guitar it's characteristic voice. Much like eq-ing tracks when you mix a record, it's a matter of carving things out to allow different sounds to come through without competing - if every track is just full range, it will sound like mush! I've had a similar experience with at least one steel, a very nice one which was one of the loudest & most resonant (unamplified) I've every played - so much so that I never felt I could get it to speak clearly, especially in a live setting. I was always fighting with the highs and the lows, needing more headroom, etc. . . Too much tone, perhaps!

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

On the point of tracking, my richest and sweetest tone comes with using a monster jazz cable. But put other instrumennts around it, and it gets buried. Switch to a monster rock cable and it barks thru the mix like it should....sorry, off-topic....

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

I have seen it where someone (like me) says this sounds bad.
Someone else sits down not touching any knobs and plays it and... sounds fine.
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Jeff Metz Jr. · From: York, Pennsylvania, USA

All of my favorite sounding guitars had a certain "tightness" to the way the strings laid and how the bar felt on top. I've noticed that the guitars with a preferable tone also had a solidity where the bar wouldn't weight the strings down. It may just be my opinion, and I certainly don't know how to explain what I mean but It is there. Slinkyness to me on a steel equates to poor resonance and inferior tone. Pickups defenitly help too to an extent, players? DEFENITLY!
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Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Having read the latest comments a few times, I come back to this quote from the original poster...

Jan Viljoen · From: Pretoria, South Africa

Hi Guys,

My question, how does a maple side psg compare to an all steel frame?
And the neck? Fixed or floating?

I know some good players play steel frames, (Joe Wright, Reece Anderson and Buddy once), but a good tone comes out of maple machines.
How is the resonance?

I read that Fender once built Telecasters out of pine and they sold out quickly. Then I wondered if any hardwood would make a good soundboard.

Let the wise men speak.

Idea

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Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

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