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Topic: One thought on the various tuning charts. |
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 9 Dec 2013 8:04 am |
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I decided to condense what I've mentioned in different threads about the different "sweetening" systems for tuning the guitars.
Really, the differences between the Emmons, Petersen, Newman, Hudson et c. charts are almost all nibbling at the edges, and they all aim to have nearly all played chords ringing mathematically true (JI).
When I started playing steel and was tuning it by ear, I asked Mike Auldridge about the chart he carried to indicate how far flat or sharp to tune each note. This was obviously before programmable tuners, we'd all just look at the chart for the values for each note, until we eventually memorized them (I still recall most of the ones I ended up using)
He told me that he had to adjust the Newman chart for his Sho-Bud because of differences in "cabinet drop" and because some people don't like the thirds going as flat as expected by JI, since we have to play with fretted instruments, who don't use anything like JI (Mike also told me to stop tuning a 6string to harmonics, because "If you do that, your G chord will ring good, but that E chord is gonna sound like hell!").
I mean we all flatten the thirds between 6-8 cents, flatten the A pedal from 13-19, et c.
For some guitars and some taste, the Hudson chart will sound closer to right than others. For other guitars, the answer will more closely resemble the Petersen; others will like the Emmons.
I recommend that either:
try all available presets and see which sounds better, or better yet;
Tune your Es to a tuner set to ET (preferably with A and B pedals down, but YMMV), then tune each note by ear. Write them down, and use them to create your OWN. Nobody, not even a joint appearance by the ghosts of Curly Chalker and Buddy Charleton channeled by a visiting Buddy Emmons, is gonna have the solution for YOUR guitar (Obviously one of the extant charts will get you pretty close, since most of us use something similar¹).
Each of my three axes has a different solution, all of them entered into my Cleartune.
¹Except me. I tune straight up, except G# and C# 4 cents flat.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects
Last edited by Lane Gray on 9 Dec 2013 8:41 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Scott Duckworth
From:
Etowah, TN Western Foothills of the Smokies
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Posted 9 Dec 2013 8:25 am
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Couldn't have said it better Lane. GREAT post and info!
_________________
Amateur Radio Operator NA4IT (Extra)
http://www.qsl.net/na4it
I may, in fact, be nuts. However, I am screwed onto the right bolt... Jesus! |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 9 Dec 2013 8:41 am
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imho, You really have to record yourself playing with your band at rehearsals and gigs, and make a chart that reflects what is "In tune with my band".
Then you can tune-up quickly and silently at your gig, and you'll know your in tune with your group. |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 9 Dec 2013 8:45 am
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The ear only lies a little, mostly on the thirds, and not getting the thirds right can cause issues.
After tuning by ear i started getting comments on the good tone. Seems that a guitar will like certain approaches better than others.
Last edited by Tom Gorr on 9 Dec 2013 8:52 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 9 Dec 2013 8:51 am
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Pete, I'd be on that solution wholeheartedly except for the impracticality of implementing it. I think tuning by ear to whatever the band uses for E (tuning the Es with pedals down) is the BEST method, but for tuning silently, I love my charts.
BTW, I mean this in no way to disparage Sid, Sue, Jeff or Buddy for the effort they made/make in making charts available and easy to implement. I just wanted to point out that a "straight from the box" solution is rarely the precise solution, and if they need tweaking, I'd rather edit a program so that you tune to 0, rather than use a "pretty close" chart, and then remember something like "I load the Emmons chart, and then run the C# 3 cents flat." I know some pickers who do that, but seem hesitant to alter the presets. They're meant to be fungible.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
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Posted 9 Dec 2013 8:55 am
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I tune my Es, to 440.
What is the reason so many tune Es to 442?
Is it to split the difference so the 3rd are not so flat?
_________________
MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 9 Dec 2013 8:59 am
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I think it was a Newman thing. That way, some tones are sharp and some flat.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 9 Dec 2013 9:03 am
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alright now, class. today's word is fungible.
how many have heard it?
how many use it daily?
do we sound smart using it?
is it fun....or fungus..? |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 9 Dec 2013 9:05 am
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Sorry, Chris. It kinda means "movable."
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 9 Dec 2013 9:08 am
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
| Pete, I'd be on that solution wholeheartedly except for the impracticality of implementing it. |
'Not sure what this means???
You make a chart that insures all the pedal/lever combos you typically use with your group sound in-tune when you listen back to the recordings of your band.
It quite likely will not be the same as tuning up by-ear by yourself.
If your band tunes to an E that is straight up on their tuners, your E needs to average out to straight up when you toggle on/off your AB pedals.
So no-pedals will be slightly sharp of E, A+B-down will be slightly flat of E. |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 9 Dec 2013 9:10 am
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originally someone started tuning Es to 442 to help adjust the overall tuning center, bringing it closer to 440 after cabinet drop was discovered.
.....i think.
keep in mind that 'i' don't really 'know' anything. |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 9 Dec 2013 9:25 am
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| Ken Metcalf wrote: |
I tune my Es, to 440.
What is the reason so many tune Es to 442?
Is it to split the difference so the 3rd are not so flat? |
Ken, It is so the steel sounds more in tune with keyboards. Keyboards are normally stretch tuned which means the notes above middle C lean sharp. Also for some reason in the higher registers leaning sharp on the steel sounds better than leaning flat. At least that is how I have experienced it.
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Bob |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 9 Dec 2013 9:45 am
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| Pete Burak wrote: |
| Lane Gray wrote: |
| Pete, I'd be on that solution wholeheartedly except for the impracticality of implementing it. |
'Not sure what this means???
You make a chart that insures all the pedal/lever combos you typically use with your group sound in-tune when you listen back to the recordings of your band.
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I mean that it's unlikely you'll remember exactly how you tuned when you go back and listen to the tape/video. That's all. Just the logistics of creating a chart based on evidence of the past.
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It quite likely will not be the same as tuning up by-ear by yourself.
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Exactly, but hopefully, tuning by ear will eventually involve adjustments so that the final result will be in tune.
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If your band tunes to an E that is straight up on their tuners, your E needs to average out to straight up when you toggle on/off your AB pedals.
So no-pedals will be slightly sharp of E, A+B-down will be slightly flat of E. |
I like that. So either use 441, or make a note of the two Es, and choose a start point in the middle?
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 9 Dec 2013 10:59 am
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I think you're reading too much into it Lane.
It's a thread about making a tuning chart, right?
Just make a Chart that ensures you are in-tune with the band you are gigging with.
Validate your chart by reviewing your gig recordings.
Tweak it 'til you get it right for all the pedal/lever combos you are using in the gig.
Last edited by Pete Burak on 9 Dec 2013 11:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 9 Dec 2013 11:04 am
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Right. Which is really what I was getting at: any chart needs tweaking, unless you get lucky. Or decide on ET. Which I tried. ET thirds sound jangly to me.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 9 Dec 2013 11:04 am
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Right. Which is really what I was getting at: any chart needs tweaking, unless you get lucky. Or decide on ET. Which I tried. ET thirds sound jangly to me.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Stephen Grasberger
From:
Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 9 Dec 2013 11:38 am
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| Quote: |
| alright now, class. today's word is fungible. |
Fungible means interchangeable, especially for the purpose of settling a commodities trade.
Using it makes you sound like a finance geek. Yikes! |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 9 Dec 2013 11:39 am
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Yeah I think this is where you lost me...
| Lane Gray wrote: |
...I mean that it's unlikely you'll remember exactly how you tuned when you go back and listen to the tape/video. That's all. Just the logistics of creating a chart based on evidence of the past.
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You will know exactly how you tuned.
You tuned to the chart you used at that gig... The gig you are now listining to and reviewing to make sure you sound in tune with the band throughout all the pedal/lever combos you played. |
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Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
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Posted 9 Dec 2013 11:41 am
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I see people play around Austin that tune E.T. and they sound perfect.
I guess it is one of those things that if you keep doing it you can eventually make it work and sound right.
_________________
MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes |
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Len Amaral
From:
Rehoboth,MA 02769
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Posted 9 Dec 2013 12:24 pm
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What about bar pressure and if you unconsciously place the bar a bit sharp or flat. What if you have more than one steel and they react differently to straight up or a compensated tuning.
I use the Newman tuning for a start and tweak from there. My 2 cents.... |
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Alex Cattaneo
From:
Quebec, Canada
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Posted 9 Dec 2013 1:00 pm
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To me, E @ 442 = E @ 440 with AB pedals down.
Tuning by ear has improved my tuning considerably. I start with E @ 440 with AB pedals down, then follow Al Brisco's method (it's on his website). Then I make a chart and enter those in the tuner. Like Lane says, each guitar is different. I've used a Sho-Bud, a Justice and a Desert Rose, and I have a setting for each one in my Peterson/Cleartune. I've yet to try a chart or tuner sweetening setting that I liked.
Maybe you could use someone else's chart IF his guitar had the exact same cabinet flex as your guitar. Maybe... |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 9 Dec 2013 1:31 pm
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| chris ivey wrote: |
originally someone started tuning Es to 442 to help adjust the overall tuning center, bringing it closer to 440 after cabinet drop was discovered.
.....i think.
keep in mind that 'i' don't really 'know' anything. |
Chris you know as much as the next guy. don't appear to put yourself down.
My take FWIW is that someone started tuning to 442 and that someone was Jeff Newman. Back in the 70's he recommended this. Since then, I have discovered that every make is different and there are subtle ones even in the same make. So therefor it makes sense to mash AB peds and tune 4 and 8 to 440. That takes care of the cab drop to some extent.
I have heard some tuning procedures by pros where the steel sounds very much in tune. For me, it would be a good idea to have them tune my guitar and then, if I had one of those programmable tuners, to program this tuning into it. Then, as my ear got keener, I would either keep that tuning standard, or make some "sweetening" changes. One thing seems clear to me. The pros never have the struggle with tuning a steel like I do. So IMHO I should go by the pros. 
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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