Hearing the verb out front

Larry Behm · From: Mt Angel, Or 97362

In order for the verb to sound really good with a loud band out front, it seems you have to add more than you like on stage. No front of house guy, your average room or bar with various surfaces etc etc. Everything being equal, if that makes sense. Thoughts.

Larry Behm
_________________
'70 D10 Black fatback Emmons PP, Hilton VP, BJS bars, Boss GE-7 for Dobro effect, Zoom MS50G, Stereo Steel amp, Telonics 15” speaker.

Phone: 971-219-8533

Tim Marcus · From: San Francisco, CA

My thought has always been:

If you can hear the reverb, it's too much
_________________
Milkmansound.com

Larry Behm · From: Mt Angel, Or 97362

Tim, out front?

Larry Behm
_________________
'70 D10 Black fatback Emmons PP, Hilton VP, BJS bars, Boss GE-7 for Dobro effect, Zoom MS50G, Stereo Steel amp, Telonics 15” speaker.

Phone: 971-219-8533

Mike Schwartzman · From: Maryland, USA

My thought Larry: I can't put a rule of thumb on that one. I guess that's why God invented soundmen and sound checks.

I've been in rooms with odd angled surfaces or lots of glass, or high ceilings. Maybe a 2nd floor room with wooden flooring etc. etc. I've been in rooms where a little reverb can go a long way or even over the top.

With no soundman at a small to medium room I used to walk the room with a bass guitar strapped on (wireless)while the full band played during a sound check to listen to "the room sound". Of course that would change as soon as people came in. Tough to gauge sometimes, but good topic, Larry.
_________________
Emmons Push Pull, BMI, Session 400, Home of the Slimcaster Tele.

Bill Duncan · From: Lenoir, North Carolina, USA

If you can't hear it, why bother?
_________________
You can observe a lot just by looking

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

Enough that you're not hiding behind it. Same with delay.
Usually requires more than your practice room settings. And, depends on the room acoustics and number of people in the room.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8.

Tim Marcus · From: San Francisco, CA

Steve Collins · From: Alaska, USA

As a player and FOH person, I try to mix what is appropriate for the band, the type of music, and the room (which may include a varying amount of human 'sponge'), in that order. While I tend toward Tim's idea, that if you hear effect it is too much effect, there are no hard and fast rules. What if I am playing surf? That slappy delay-verb guitar sound can be paramount to that style of music, and should be mixed accordingly.
My maxim is if it sounds good, it is good, if it sounds okay, it is not good.

Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

Most of my favorite steel pickers use tons of reverb! Lloyd Green at times, Ralph Mooney etc. Reverb gets eaten up in a recording mix and also in a club. Add some to you settings if you want it to show up in the band mix. The amount is totally a personal preference and there is no right or wrong to this. Have someone else play your steel with a decent reverb level in the near field and then sit back in the crowd and observe how it sounds almost dry!

Greg

Jay Ganz · From: Out Behind The Barn

Lately I've been using only a bit of delay set at
about 250 ms with the highs rolled off a little.
It gets heard out front just enough without "washing out"
the steel tone at all.
_________________
Straight Ahead 500 watt mini~power amp

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Hi Larry,
You really need to put a recorder in the back of the room to record your gig, and listen to the recording to see what works.
The thing I have found is that if I crank the reverb I sound way too far back in a cave compared to the other players.
Things I have done to get the reverb effect I like to the back of the room is, use a reverb that has a pre-deley (Lexicon LXP-1 in my case), or use a Deley effect set to simulate reverb, with just a little amp reverb (reverb knob not above the 9 o'clock setting).
A short deley with a few repeats will simulate reverb, will make it to the back of the room, and will not sound like you are playing in a cave compared to the Tele guy.
A pre-deley on your reverb will also help to separate the played note from the reverb itself, so your note has a chance to get out there before the verb.
But seriously, recording for yourself and checking the recording is the only way you will know.
You can try different settings on differet songs during a gig and continually refine your reverb effect.
I really like setting #7 on my RV3, but I have found it is too lush for gigs. I use settings 4 and 5 alot now.
Also, for non soundman gigs, you can still bring a mic and hang it over your amp and run it to a channel on the board, make sure it is not in the monitors.

Dave Hopping · From: Aurora, Colorado

Reverb sounds great if you're playing quietly in the man-cave.At stage volume with several other instruments(including cymbals!)playing into open vocal mics,the extraneous noise can get out of control too easily,and overuse of effects is one of the contributing factors.A little goes a long way.

I worked with a bass player once who put a harmonizer between his mic and the board so he could be a one-man chorus on his backing vocals.Fine,except he was right in front of the drummer's ride cymbal,so we had lots of harmonized ride cymbal in the FOH AND the monitors. Shocked

John Roche · From: England

I use a Roland cube 80 , you can loop a little steel and play it back while you walk around the room then YOU know what it needs , more or less.. simple...

John Roche · From: England

I use a Roland cube 80 , you can loop a little steel and play it back while you walk around the room then YOU know what it needs , more or less.. simple...

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

I've used a Digitech JammMan Looper pedal to play some Steel and walk around the room and check the volume/tone/effect-level.
That is helpful, but I've never done that during a loud gig while playing with the band, just before the gig started.
I'm still using a Mini-disk recorder from the late 90's to record gigs. Oy.

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

I think Pete is right about setting a "pre-delay" in your reverb where possible. Brad Sarno has mentioned this as well.

If you have a few millisecond lag time between the "pick attack" and the start of the reverb effect, you retain the percussiveness of the original picked note. That way, the reverb effect is not so bluurred and muddy.

My Lexicon MX 200 has this parameter and it really cleans things up & makes the string attack stand-out

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

Reverb pre-delay is an important part of maintaining tonal clarity in your signal, whenever possible I try to get about 100ms in there; As for the question of whether the audience hears less or more reverb than the players this is entirely a function of room acoustics. In a large room with many reflective surfaces you may need to apply LESS reverb than you like to hear to get the optimum 'verb balance to the audience, in a smaller, carpeted room you may wish to increase the 'verb at the amp.

Many top mix engineers do add some reverb and delay to most solo instruments, but here's the difference: By adding an extra bit of THE SAME REVERB to the various instruments a uniform ambient field is created that draws the entire mix into a cohesive image in the mind of the listener. Just adding a bunch of extra amp reverb to one instrument tends to make that instrument stand apart in an unmusical fashion.

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

Reverb pre-delay is an important part of maintaining tonal clarity in your signal, whenever possible I try to get about 100ms in there.

As for the question of whether the audience hears less or more reverb than the players this is entirely a function of amp placement and directivity coupled with room acoustics. In a large room with many reflective surfaces you may need to apply LESS reverb than you like to hear to get the optimum 'verb balance to the audience, especially if your amp is buried or pointed away from the audience area in question. In a smaller, carpeted room you may wish to increase the 'verb at the amp or intentionally bury it on stage.

Many top mix engineers do add some reverb and delay to most solo instruments, but here's the difference: By adding an extra bit of THE SAME REVERB to the various instruments a uniform ambient field is created that draws the entire mix into a cohesive image in the mind of the listener. Just adding a bunch of extra amp reverb to one instrument tends to make that instrument stand apart in an unmusical fashion.

Jerry Kippola · From: UP Michigan, USA

nothin sounds more cheezy than too much 'verb

Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

Yeah, real cheezy picker's like this one:

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Samples/01_Buck%20Owens%20-%20The%20House%20Down%20The%20Block%20-%201962.mp3

Listen to all that fat reverb on the steel part. Someone should teach him about how reverb destroys the tone!

Greg

Rick Schacter · From: Portland, Or.

Jay Ganz · From: Out Behind The Barn

I thought we were talking about live playing.
Of course reverb sounds great on studio recordings.
I don't record without it, but out on stage with room
acoustics coming into play, it's sometimes a different story.

George Redmon · From: Muskegon & Detroit Michigan.

Surfs up! i dunno, as poorly as i play, i gotta have verb! Confused

But i do know one thing fur sure. I can hear a cheap reverb. The worse reverb i have ever played through, was years ago in an old Sears Silvertone amplifier. Do you remember those old grey piggy back sears amps? they didn't sound too bad..but oh lord those reverbs..just nasty.

John Macy · From: Rockport TX/Denver CO

Talent Knob...
_________________
John Macy
Rockport, TX
Engineer/Producer/Steel Guitar

Paddy Long · From: Christchurch, New Zealand

Like Pete I use a Lexicon unit with pre-delay -- I usually set that to around 65 ms so the verb doesnt wash out the steel sound.
On my Telonics Preamp there is a 'wet/dry" mix knob, which I can use to tweak the reverb setting to the room ... (or the song) ... just at the touch of the fingers - very versatile feature :-}
_________________
14'Zumsteel Hybrid D10 9+9
08'Zumsteel Hybrid D10 9+9
94' Franklin Stereo D10 9+8
Telonics, Peterson, Steelers Choice, Benado, Lexicon, Red Dirt Cases.

Forum Index > Electronics	Goto page 1, 2 Next	Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic