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Topic: Sustain and pickups. |
Travis Lyon
From: From NJ, USA lives in Dublin, IE
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Posted 16 Oct 2013 9:26 am
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I have an MSA Classic (Not an SS or XL) from 1977 with the original SuperSustain I pickup. The guitar sounds good through my Twin Reverb, but I want a little more sustain and clarity in my tone. I was wondering if changing out the pickup to something like a TrueTone would help in this? I understand pickups don't inherently add or subtract sustain from an instrument, but I've heard great things and was hoping this may be an easy way to significantly improve the tone without buying a new steel. Mainly because I am poor. |
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Ricky Davis
From: Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 16 Oct 2013 10:51 am
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Travis; that is actually a great question. Let me put a few thoughts to chew on; on the table.
Ok in the overall output of making the steel guitar sound; not considering all the materials combined to make the sound when you first set the string(s) in motion; basically this is what is happening pertaining to your question.
First thing is you strike the string; vibrate if you will...and that string vibrates in the back and forth direction of the angle you strike it. A pure side to side will give you the best;widest vibration to be equally picked up by the microphone underneath. That microphone is your pickup and those are magnets pulling down from the field above. If the magnets are too close; they will start limiting that movement immediately upon striking them and sustain of those strings die off faster. If the magnet field is too far; it will not pickup the quality of the vibration at attack.
So just changing a pickup if both pickups old and new are working; will not do too much(humbucker to single coil and visa versa will). The striking of the string and where/how they move in correlation to how far the magnet field is; it more important.
Ricky _________________ Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Jim Pitman
From: Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 16 Oct 2013 12:04 pm
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This likely isn't helpful but.....
I've owned MSA/Shobud/Zum/Emmons/Fessenden/Infinity. I have tried various pickups in each and have determined that sustain appears to be inherent in the design/structure of the guitar. BTW, the last three mentioned above have/had the best sustain of the bunch, not to say this is the case with all of a particular brand, just the ones I've owned anyway.
Yes, you can affect the overall tone by swapping out pickups, but changing the sustain is another matter.
Like Ricky says you can adjust a pickup to optimize it (to a small degree).
My experience has been generally, if the PSG is acoustically loud it stands a good chance of having good sustain/tone when you plug it in. Others here may argue against that.
Here's another hypothesis people will argue with - By observation, those guitars with bulky necks and tops have less sustain. Unfortunately, those guitars with less bulky tops and necks that have good sustain are likely to exhibit more cabinet detune.
Designing in sustain with good tuning stability seems to be illusive. That subject alone warrants a thesis. My theory is the neck/top must resonate a bit, or perhaps be tuned to a resonance favoring the range of tones you like and want to sustain (like the fundamental for a starter).
Some folks have experimented with the tightness of neck screws with favorable results. Though, not a great solution, try loosening the neck screws or remove the neck entirely to see if this changes things. If I remember correctly, that's not too dificult to do with an MSA. |
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Georg Sørtun
From: Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 16 Oct 2013 2:01 pm
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Although there is only so much you can do to improve actual sustain without rebuilding/redesigning your PSG, you can to some degree affect/improve on perceived sustain and tone-clarity in any PSG by idealizing the load on the PickUp by means of a buffer-(pre)amp. Li'l Izzy comes to mind, but there are many other dedicated buffers out there.
I always put what I call "sound-character enhancers" (dedicated buffer chains) as first stages no matter which one of my various PSGs I play, and it affects them all in a positive way in that I can milk out more of their inherent sound qualities -- including sustain. |
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Bob Carlucci
From: Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 16 Oct 2013 3:20 pm Re: Sustain and pickups.
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Travis Lyon wrote: |
I have an MSA Classic (Not an SS or XL) from 1977 with the original SuperSustain I pickup. The guitar sounds good through my Twin Reverb, but I want a little more sustain and clarity in my tone. I was wondering if changing out the pickup to something like a TrueTone would help in this? I understand pickups don't inherently add or subtract sustain from an instrument, but I've heard great things and was hoping this may be an easy way to significantly improve the tone without buying a new steel. Mainly because I am poor. |
Travis.. You didn't mention if your MSA was a mica body or maple/lacquer.. If its mica, you will knowck your head against the wall trying to get good sustain.. Many of them simply won't do it.. They had "dead" plywood bodies, and they just don't ring... I know, I tried... If its a maple body, it really should have sustain to burn, unless you got a bad one.. There is a huge difference in the sound and sustain of mica and wood MSA guitars.. I would recommend putting a Wallace Truetone single coil pickup in.. It is a much better sounding pickup than the MSA SS humbucker.. Also try putting a good half rack compressor/limiter between your steel guitar and amp.. Won't color the tone, and will "squeeze" the signal and help get more sustain...
One thing for you to try before you buy a new pickup.... Angle the SS pickup quite low in front, and high in the back near the changer... Your steel will sound a LOT better,,, It takes out a lot of the muddiness. Your rear coil will be closer to the strings, and increase the clarity, and there is something about the change in the magnetic field angk=le off the strings that adds a sweeter more "glassy" sound.. Its a pretty dramatic difference, and it won't cost a nickel... The pickup has to have quite a steep angle lower in front and higher in back.. It really works great, try it.. It even seemed to increase the already good sustain my MSA has, likely due to less magnetic pull on the strings.... bob _________________ I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Donny Hinson
From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 16 Oct 2013 3:38 pm
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Yes, it's true that the guitar itself plays a large role in the "sustain equation", and that a pickup won't do very much to increase sustain. That considered, I feel the amp, and how it's set, can make the biggest difference, by far in sustain. Simply put, you get that "forever sustain" by having enough amplitude available to keep raising the signal to the amp while it's dying down on the guitar. If you don't set the amp volume high enough, there simply isn't enough surplus power available at the volume pedal to keep things going.
Some time ago, a chart was posted that gave the amp settings for every major player at a past I.S.G.C. show, and I was not surprised in the least that Buddy's volume setting was twice as high as any other player. (And no, he didn't do that just to be louder. )
Turn the amp up, learn to really use the volume pedal properly, and any guitar has enough sustain. ![Winking](images/smiles/icon_winking.gif) |
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Jim Pitman
From: Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 16 Oct 2013 4:51 pm
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Good point Donny. In fact a big component of steel guitar playing is learning to defeat the sustain. |
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Alan Brookes
From: Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 16 Oct 2013 5:03 pm
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Thanks Donny. That's something I hadn't thought of. |
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Alan Berdoulay
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Posted 17 Oct 2013 3:08 am
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"Designing in sustain with good tuning stability seems to be illusive. That subject alone warrants a thesis. My theory is the neck/top must resonate a bit, or perhaps be tuned to a resonance favoring the range of tones you like and want to sustain (like the fundamental for a starter).
Some folks have experimented with the tightness of neck screws with favorable results."
.....not unlike a drummer with his heads. |
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Ward Orsinger
From: Runge Texas
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Posted 19 Oct 2013 7:01 pm
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I guess I've had 14 MSA's....trying to make the great-built guitar sound great...went back to what I started with, been happy ever since! SHO BUD BRO! |
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Paul Norman
From: Washington, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 20 Oct 2013 4:50 am
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The amp has to be designed for steel.
The speaker has to move farther (like in a Bass speaker ) to get the sustain. The pre amp is also designed different. I cannot get a good sustain from my Twin Reverb. Nashville 1000, NV400, Nv112, Session 400 and 500. All these are especially designed for Pedal steel. |
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Edward Rhea
From: Medford Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 20 Oct 2013 5:49 am sustain
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Does playing w/a heavier bar help w/sustain? I don't know, just saying, seems to make a little difference w/tone. _________________ “TONESNOB” |
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Donny Hinson
From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 20 Oct 2013 7:20 am
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Yes, heavier bars can help somewhat, as can proper vibrato technique.
Paul, I can get great sustain from a Twin, or any of my Fender amps, none of which were designed for pedal steel. Also, I feel speakers and tone networks will affect the tone of an instrument, but not the sustain, because speakers are inherently inefficient. A speaker will always put out far less than what is put into it. |
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Lane Gray
From: Topeka, KS
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Posted 20 Oct 2013 7:51 am
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I'm with Donny. I've not noticed that amps affect sustain. Unless you turn it down.
Heavier and harder bars contribute, but the guitar is the major element. _________________ 2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Georg Sørtun
From: Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 20 Oct 2013 8:26 am
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...just couldn't resist.
The LMB-3 is permanent part of my sound-chains before the VP, either alone (as buffer) or as second stage after a dedicated and adjustable buffer. A PSG, any PSG, has to be completely dead for it not to have the amount of sustain I want with the LMB-3 turned on. |
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Bill Duncan
From: Lenoir, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 21 Oct 2013 3:01 am
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As for me, sustain and tone is very subjective and seems to change day to day. I have two guitars, a MSA and a Williams, and some days my MSA sounds best, some days the Williams. The MSA is a formica/plywood body, the Williams is not. I cannot tell if that makes a lot of difference though. Some days I hate both guitars!
The most agravating place I play is at home and I've learned to never base how the guitar will sound played out by the way it sounds at home. As a matter of fact my guitars sound different according to who I play with and their instruments.
Chasing tone and sustain will drive you to drink if you let it! _________________ You can observe a lot just by looking |
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Olli Haavisto
From: Jarvenpaa,Finland
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Posted 21 Oct 2013 4:42 am
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On the subject of having the amp loud and using the volume pedal for sustain:
While humbucking pups don`t actually increase sustain (with a clean amp) they do give you a lot more usable signal before the hum drowns out the actual sound of the guitar. More usable signal for the volume pedal to push up, more apparent sustain. _________________ Olli Haavisto
Finland |
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Georg Sørtun
From: Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 21 Oct 2013 3:23 pm
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Olli Haavisto wrote: |
On the subject of having the amp loud and using the volume pedal for sustain [...] |
I'd like to continue there - while ignoring the varying "hum" contribution with various PUs ATM.
Riding the VP, almost all PSGs I have tested so far have more or less the same decay TIME from let's say 90% to 10% level (volume) out of the instrument. They do however have widely different decay characteristics (curves), so while some falls slowly at the start and stay above 50% for quite a while, others fall quite quickly to well below 50% and stay there for quite a while. Some have fall characteristics as if there are steps in the fall-curve, while some fall very evenly.
This means that if the player's VP riding action follows the individual PSGs decay characteristic (curve) closely, and there's enough reserve amplification at hand (amp is turned loud while you play low), any reasonably good PSG with good fresh strings on can be made (played) to exhibit excellent sustain.
That PSGs with varying decay characteristics (curves) then differ in tone character during VP riding is obvious, as you get more type-characteristic timbre (body tone) out of a PSG when pushing volume high near the end of its sustain time with low string vibration, than you get out of a PSG when volume is held back while string vibration is high.
As I have over the years spent more time on studying characteristics of musical instruments and how to control and if necessary modify them electronically to my liking, than most of you have spent playing steel - including practice-time, I am definitely on "home territory" here.
I am an electronic engineer by profession - sound-shaping and mechatronics being my main fields, and although I am (only) 60 years old now I retired from my day-job years ago because of health problems. So, my profession became one of my hobbies - along with PSG playing and other activities for which my health problems don't hold me back too much.
When again taking up my hobby playing PSG a little more actively - a few years ago, I sought all over the market for stomp-box sized units that would automatically control factors like decay characteristics (curves) while sounding natural, the way I used to control things with my studio rig. The LMB-3 is the closest to the real thing I have been able to find, and although it is far from perfect in comparison to my studio rig, it sounds pretty decent in my PSG sound-chains - especially when pushed to near its limits by an adjustable buffer.
What the LMB-3 does (with a moderate setting) is simple: it rides the decay characteristics (curves) and evens out the levels just enough to make all my PSGs extend well - stay above the 50% decay level for much longer regardless of each PSG's individual decay characteristic (curve). It is like playing at moderate levels with the amplifier set a number of times too loud and volume being perfectly controlled via the VP - and of course I have the VP after the LMB-3 in order to control volume (and to express myself).
What the LMB-3 does not is to impact the attack, alter tone characteristic, or make it sound as if there's a compressor in the sound-chain, as that would be totally unacceptable to me. The LMB-3 also does not cut down on hum (if that's a problem), so here a humbucker PU and good VP control must come to the rescue.
That's all ... apart from that the LMB-3 is cheap to try, and can be made to sound awful if not set right ![Smile](images/smiles/icon_smile.gif) |
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Bill Duncan
From: Lenoir, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2013 2:51 am
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I've never tried the LMB-3, it sounds somewhat like the Exciter pedals. However, as you say they are cheap enough to give a try without breaking the bank. _________________ You can observe a lot just by looking |
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