Intonation problem

John RJ Wilson · From: United Kingdom

I have felt for some time that my little Guyatone has an intonation problem. I changed strings last night in order that I could have a go at slack G tuning. DGDGBD, and now I know there is a problem. The guitar is perfectly in tune, but laying the bar on the 12th fret, the octave on the low D is out and occurs 1/4 to 1/3 of the way to 11th fret marker. I have checked by just standing the steel on the strings and plucking I can see it plainly. However, when I measure from the nut to the string break point on the bridge across the neck at various point the scale length is as near as makes no difference 201/2 certainly within a 1/32 of an inch.

I am bamboozled, and there is no adjustment on this instrument. Thoughts appreciated. If it helps I also notice that looking vertically down on the pickup the strings from low to high gradually move from dead centre of the pole piece on the lowest string to a fair bit above the pole on the highest string. The bridge is a chrome cylinder with no cut slots,
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Guyatone HG-91, Fender Hot Rod Deluxe, Ernie Ball Jr volume pedal.

Mike Neer · From: NJ

What gauge of string are you using for string 6?
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John RJ Wilson · From: United Kingdom

Mike Neer · From: NJ

Are the tops of your strings even all the way across? In other words, if the nut slot is not cut for that string gauge that you are using for string 6, it will not be seated properly in the slot and the downward pressure from the weight of the bar will make the note sharp, because more pressure would be needed to make clean contact with the other strings. Could this be what is happening, or is your note flat?
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Frank Welsh · From: Upstate New York, USA

John, perhaps your fretboard, nut or bridge placements or fret markers are off a bit relative to the neck. One or more of these items may be "out of sync" with the rest of the structure. On a standard (Spanish) guitar the bigger strings, especially the thick wound strings, need more compensation to play in tune up the neck. It's possible that any inaccuracy in the placement of the fingerboard or nut relative to the fingerboard on the neck of your steel could add to the "out-of-tune" character of that thick .056 gauge string. This effect may not be as noticeable on the thinner strings since they require less compensation.

Since most steel guitar bridges lack the individual string compensation normally found on standard electric guitars, the techniques of vibrato and compensatory bar placement usually help the steel player to get the right pitch for notes and chords and this is certainly part of the "art" of playing steel guitar. That's why I think it's good to start with a really accurate fretboard, including nut and bridge placement since good intonation is challenging for the steel player anyway.

Just some quick thoughts that may help.

Stephen Abruzzo · From: Philly, PA

+1 to what Mike said.

Especially if you were going from C6 tuning to Low Bass G. The lowest string in C6 tuning is usually in the .036-.038 range. So, with the D tuning and the .056 string, you're talking about a string that is about 150% thicker than the string that was on previously.

John RJ Wilson · From: United Kingdom

Great replies guys, I will look at all this in a few hours and report back. I presume the cure will be to widen the slot if I think this is the problem. Having to increase the guage as per Mr Ely's chart is one of the problems with the very short scale I suppose.But I do not think the nut, bridge, pickup and tail piece run parallel to each other.
As to real world playing intonation,I know what you mean, in my fledgling experience, it's like golf, one day brilliant,next day dire.
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Guyatone HG-91, Fender Hot Rod Deluxe, Ernie Ball Jr volume pedal.

John RJ Wilson · From: United Kingdom

Okay, I have checked all strings are seated at the bottom of the nut slots, but by jove they are tight. The bottom D string is well on the way to D sharp at the twelveth fret line. I checked the distance to the 12th fret line and comes in at almost smack on 10 1/4 inches from break point of nut to middle of the fret line.
I have looked closely at the fret board and to the eye it looks "down" and at the low side and "up" at the high side, very small, but may be an illusion. It can't be much though, as by the second D it is spot on tuning wise.

Right so a minor misplacement of the fret board, maybe loosening the screws and tweeking might help. But the main cause is the string guage, and also I am still pressing too hard on the strings with the bar,I noticed, i'm trying, not too, I really am, but I am raising the pitch sometimes for sure, and that massive string is still quite bendy, and I find I am having to press harder than I should to get a reasonable tone down there, so I live with it and compensate.Fine for sliding into the note, but not for hammering on. Does all that make sense?? If not please put me right.
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Guyatone HG-91, Fender Hot Rod Deluxe, Ernie Ball Jr volume pedal.

Ted Smith · Posted 10 Oct 2013 10:03 am

Frank and Mike are right on, if you study string compensation - the truth is the 6th, 2nd and 3rd strings should be slightly longer when bar chording above the fifth fret, you'll note that Cindy Cashdollar suggest slightly detuning the 2nd string in the G tuning on her Dobro video which is basically trying to do the same thing. I know studio players who work hard at compensating slightly with the bar but it is so minimal that your ear is going to have to do the work over your vision. See if there is enough bridge to use a small half moon file and do one or two swipes on the action side, if so it might make all the difference.
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John RJ Wilson · From: United Kingdom

Thanks Ted,
The bridge is an unslotted chrome cylinder, so not possible. I am going to go down a guage and tune to open Em now that I have my Guyatone HG 306, that should help and I will try tuning slightly off using my tuner till I get the correct intonation on the fret marker. Thanks for the tip.
As for temperament and intonation, Steve Vai really got into that a few year back, remember reading all about his True Temperament guitar. Shocked

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Guyatone HG-91, Fender Hot Rod Deluxe, Ernie Ball Jr volume pedal.

Martin Zeigler · From: Camden, Maine, USA

Hi, I agree with what everyone said except the part about the compensation. From what I've heard (on this forum sometime ago)the strings are not being freted like a 'regular' guitar and therefor do not need to be compensated. I wouldn't try compensating it unless the saddle/bridge is bent or out of round at the problem string. If you're pushing down too hard then they will sharpen. I think Mike Neer might be on to what the problem is with the string ht. The seating in the nut is of course important but the height should be measured as Mike said so they are level on the top where the bar touches. I need to do that with my latest build so it stays in tune up the neck.
Good luck.
Zig

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