This guitar concept presents a dilemma for PSG

Bo Legg · Posted 25 Sep 2013 9:10 am

Donâ€™t ask me how but this really works on jazz guitar.
The concept of pattern playing just does not present itself in the same manor as a PSG
Iâ€™ve just got to mention this and it might explain our (Stuart and I) dilemma

Stuart had this thing he created that the Theory explanation for it was about 2 pages long.

Stuart explained that the theory was just a complicated musical explanation to what was simply derived from fret board patterns which in reality were as Stuart explained mirror chords that shared a note or notes of the chord as well as passing notes which were on the mirror surface with the original outside the mirror and the reverse within the mirror. Boy that really explained it.

I other words you were looking at the edge of the mirror and that mirror was one fret and image within the mirror was a chord on frets on one side of the mirror and the original was on frets on the other side of the mirror with the shared notes all on one fret (the mirror surface).

However if you looked at it with the understanding of the mirror explanation and visualized it on the fret board in that manor it was easy.
But if you tried to think of it in terms of theory it was almost impossible.

Then compound the whole thing by applying it to the PSG

Larry Behm · From: Mt Angel, Or 97362

Wow if this is what it took to play steel we would be in trouble.

For me things like P1 is the relative minor of the open chord and P1 and P2 make the 4 chord etc etc make it pretty easy to understand.

Beyond that it depends on who is paying any attention to what you are playing, and does it really matter. Just saying.

Larry Behm
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Rick Schacter · From: Portland, Or.

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

What note is the bass playing?

Bo Legg · Posted 25 Sep 2013 6:36 pm

Here is an example mp3 and spreadsheet
I just noodled a bit with it on guitar. I really didn't do it justice but you can get the idea from it.
on first part of mp3 I play the mirror chords, then I play the notes of the chords in an ascending scale and then I add the passing tones and play as an ascending scale and then I adlib through the rest at that same position using only those notes. I bend the 6 to the 7 in a few places.
click here

Dick Sexton · From: Greenville, Ohio

You've peaked my interest... More please.

Bo Legg · Posted 26 Sep 2013 2:28 pm

Here is a few of the chord forms of mirroring and a track of playing those in each scale over a
1 2m 5(7) 1 and 6m 2m 5(7) 1 chord progression.
I played the mirror chords over the first part of the song just so you could hear the mirror (normally I would not play those as a chord, just the scale derived from them.
In the second part I adlib the scales at each mirror following the chord progression.
I could have given the playing more effort but itâ€™s good enough to give you the idea.
Click Here

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

What is a "mirror chord"? Can you put this into notes instead of diagrams? For example, what is the mirror chord of C major (C E G)? Is it (G E C)? That's what I imagine.

I have never heard the term "mirror chord" before now.
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Stuart Legg · Posted 26 Sep 2013 5:36 pm

Well as usual Boâ€™s â€œwhat he said wasâ€ it is close butâ€¦â€¦... Laughing

Letâ€™s start over with thisâ€¦.

Traditional or tonal music is made up of non-symmetrical groups of pitches, such as the diatonic scale or the major chord.
Symmetrical is scales or chords, such as the whole tone scale, augmented chord or diminished , diminished chords (diminished-diminished seventh).

What Iâ€™m doing is applying mirror symmetry to traditional non-symmetrical scales and chords.

I arrange chords or scales so at a given fret used as the axis of symmetry, if I folded the neck across the axis fret it would result in two identical halves.

However the PSG neck doesnâ€™t fold like that since it uses a tone bar and naturally seeks moving perpendicular groupings out of necessity as apposed to more horizontal use of fingers on standard guitar.

So the problem is transcribing horizontal logic to a mostly perpendicular instrument.

Alan Tanner · From: Near Dayton, Ohio

Couldn't you just strum up instead of down???

Bo Legg · Posted 26 Sep 2013 6:12 pm

Mirror symmetry is correct term.
b0b The word " mirror chords" came out of the blue as i was writting.
Mirror symmetry for C E G would be G Bb D low to high in scale but Stuart is deriving scales from mirrored chords and it would be low to high C E G C E B if you folded it on the C E at the 5th fret or high to low C G E D A E if you folded it at the E on the 9th fret and etc..

Stuart Legg · Posted 26 Sep 2013 6:53 pm

Bo you did a Frighteningly great job describing the dilemma Laughing

Here is couple of the derived scales of some mirror symmetric chords that I transcribed to perpendicular on E9. the D lever lowers the 2nd string 1/2 step.

Stuart Legg · Posted 26 Sep 2013 7:39 pm

I did notice in deriving scales with passing tones with this method I seem to be coming up with a reoccurring sequence of chromatic notes.

There is usually a 5 #5 6 b7 sequence in the minor and dominate 7 chord derived scales and a 7 1 b9 9 sequence on the major chord derived scales.

So I just decided to apply that and that only to the PSG.
This means that my iii with passing tones will work perfectly for the major chords as well and Iâ€™ve notice the ii minor and passing tones works well for the V7.
So you can basically use the two scales I listed above thru a I ii V7 I chord progression.

I much prefer the V7 scale to the substituted ii because it keeps the 5 #5 6 b7 which just sounds better to me since it is a reoccurring part of this picking style.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I'd like to point out that there are no frets in music theory. Mirroring the fretboard is a pseudo-random approach to composition. It doesn't seem to be very useful to me.

I did an album once that applied varying degrees of genuine randomness to all of the notes, usually within an established musical context (actual scales, chords, etc.). The results weren't very listenable, according to most of my friends and family. Your mileage may vary, I suppose.
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Dick Sexton · From: Greenville, Ohio

I've been exploring mirroring on the E9th neck for a while now. Most, don't sound to country
and some might say, not even musical. But of course they are.

One example that comes to mind:

1_____________________________________________
2_____________________________________________
3_____________________________________________
4_____________________________________________
5__________________10_________________________
6_______________10____10______________________
7____________9___________11___________________
8__10__9--8_________________12__11--10________
9_______________________________________10____
10____________________________________________

Bo and Stu, keep up the good work... I always find interesting things in what you do.

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

Stuart Legg · Posted 27 Sep 2013 8:31 am

I in no way suggest that a person play mirror chords as such in a chord progression. Iâ€™m only suggesting mirror chords as a means of achieving a scale.

I chose mirror chords that are tonally compatible and each some degree of a given chord.

Iâ€™m really suggesting a mean of notes low to high in 4ths 3 times then a 3rd and then another 4th and using some or all these six mean of notes within a scale to be derived by rule â€œif any note of the mean of notes is preceded by a note Â½ step or a whole step below must be followed by the same step degree aboveâ€œ.

This means that my passing notes will always be within the mean of notes and the notes below and above the mean of notes were pre-selected as a given to be compatible with Traditional Tonal Theory.
Random maybe, maybe not but good results is diffidently predictable.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I encourage random shapes for technique building. Many of Joe Wright's exercises are non-musical patterns. They expand your muscle memory so that when you come up with a new musical idea, your body won't have to be trained to execute it.

It's easy to fall into ruts, especially if you're always playing the same kind of music. Many of us struggle with minor keys because the patterns we've learned don't fit. Our fingers, feet and knees are coordinated to play country music and little else. Any exercises that break us out of those patterns are good.
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