line out versus mic'd amp for a gig

Tommy Boswell · From: Virginia, USA

I played my first gig with a sound man. He wanted a line out to the board, so I used my Roland Cube. My problem is that I get my best sound at home using an external speaker cab loaded with a designed-for-steel EPS-12C. But the sound man did not want to mic my great-sounding speaker, he wanted a line out from the amp, so I let him have his way. I have no way of knowing what it sounded like out front.

What do you pros do for a gig? Seems to me that at-home sound is a completely different animal from gigging sound. Do you just take what you can get?

mtulbert · From: Plano, Texas 75023

I normally use the line out of my Revelation to the sound board when playing a big gig. It gives the sound guy a little more control over the balance of the band in the mix.

I would suggest that on your next gig you have a friend come along with you and listen to you play through your speaker during sound check and compare the sound coming out of the mains. With any luck at all the tonal differences should be minimal. When I do sound, I always listen to the instruments from the musicians point of view and replicate what they want.
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Tim Marcus · From: San Francisco, CA

I was a live sound engineer for almost a decade - I always preferred to mic amplifiers over a DI even from a bass player.

Now that I make amplifiers, I have confirmed what I had always suspected: the amp is the single most important aspect of your tone. If you DI you miss out on everything the amplifier is adding to your sound. Speaker included. Imagine taking a DI from Eddie Van Halen's guitar? Would it sound anything like what comes out of the speakers of his amp? The answer is no

Many engineers to not understand what a pedal steel is. I have had people come up to me with a confused look on their faces asking what to do. I always say "put a 57 on the amp" and its a done deal. That way I can control the tone.
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Tommy Boswell · From: Virginia, USA

Thanks for the replies. I may have to go shopping for a 57.

Tim Marcus · From: San Francisco, CA

I should specify that acoustic instruments are commonly not mic'd - that is a good use of a DI. Also keyboard instruments without amps.
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Jonathan Cullifer · From: Gallatin, TN

It's extremely rare that I have a sound man try to run me direct, and even rarer that they end up doing it. Most are at smaller venues with sound engineers and equipment that isn't used very much. The last time I ran direct on any gig was in 2007 (if my memory serves me correctly).

That said, I know people that play on major tours that do run direct for the majority of their shows. If I was doing that, I would run into some sort of instrument-level EQ and into a DI and forget the amp (much lighter).

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

I used to use a DI coming out of my Nashville 400 pre-amp out to the DI box to the PA. Then I played a couple of gigs where the soundman used a Sennheiser e609 mic. I heard recordings of the sound using both methods, but have switched to using the e609 all the time now. I even carry one with me and had a sound man ask to use it instead of the 57's he normally uses.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

Gerry Simon · From: Ohio, USA

Normally I always prefer to mike my speakers but when I got my Cube 80, I tested it at home and found the sound very much like what I was hearing from the speaker when I wired from the line out...I've played several concerts and even recorded like that and got very good results. Rem, when you add a mike you are adding another variable that may or may not make a difference to your sound. I bought one of those flat Sennheiser mikes (e906) so I would be sure to have quality sound if I did mike. I'd suggest test it out yourself at home thru a good system and do what your ears tell you...

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

I am lucky enough not to need to go direct almost ever. I keep a Sennheiser E609 with my gear in case it is needed. Super handy.
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Bob

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Tommy Boswell · From: Virginia, USA

So now I'm shopping for a 609, want to sound good the next time.

Tim Marcus · From: San Francisco, CA

The 609 is a good mic - packs smaller that an 57 as well

Piezos are terrible but they do ok with an active DI in a live setting. In studio, yes, they will be mic'd up
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Michael Hummel · From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Haha, I did a gig Saturday night, and the sound man has been doing sound for 20 years. (Owns the local music store too).

He took one look at my pedal steel and said, "What's that?" We both laughed and I told him it was okay just to take a line out from my Princeton Recording amp. I know that output is designed to sound a lot like the speaker and I know it sounds good.

Luckily it worked out just fine. When I hear my steel on the out-front recording it sounds great.

Mike
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chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

take your best sounding portable amp and hang a 57 on it. if the sound guy wants a line out, tell him it doesn't work!
that way the soundfool has the feed from your miced speaker and he can stick that wherever it makes him happy.
don't let him put much of you in the monitor.

Bill Terry · From: Bastrop, TX

None of the amps I use have a line out.. but if they did I wouldn't use it. I carry an SM-57 and a little gooseneck that can slip under the handle of my Session 400 (or the occasional Fender tube amp), and bends down so the mic points in at the speaker.

I've convinced myself that hanging a 57 on the front of the amp by the cable doesn't sound the same as facing it directly at the speaker (slightly off center). I might be imagining it...
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Gary Cosden · From: Florida, USA

Question for Tim Marcus or anyone else who wants to chime in-
Here is a DI box to take a line out from a tube amp. How would you expect this to work compared to your standard DI approach and/or using a mic?
Tim - you may remember I had asked your opinion on adding a line out to my Fender Dual Showman head and this is an option other than what we discussed.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Suhr-Iso-Line-Out-Box-Free-Shipping-Free-Gift-/321186359727?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item4ac832e9af

Tim Marcus · From: San Francisco, CA

that box would definitely void the warranty on a Milkman amp

I know Fender added a resistor in series with the output transformer to give a "line out" on many of their models but again, the speaker is a BIG part of the tone of all amplifiers. My guess is that this little box is a self contained version of the Fender circuit but who knows whats in there? If its got an attenuator, its bad news for the output section of an amplifier so I would skip it.

The proper way to get a line out of a tube amp is to add a cathode follower after the preamp section - that give a nice buffered low impedance output that can drive a modern input stage on a mixing console. Or you can add a transformer to couple from a high impedance tube stage to a low impedance balanced output. But still - you don't get your speaker tone in that equation.
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Eric Philippsen · From: Central Florida USA

Many here like to run with a mic on their setup. My preference is to run a line out to the board when I use Sarno's stuff. Sounds great to my ears. If I use a NV400 then I mic the amp. Same in the studio.

Stephen Cowell · From: Round Rock, Texas, USA

For clean stuff a good DI (post-amp) is fine... you can use a good DI box in your speaker line, all it does is take a parallel tap off the speaker output and pad it down (use the box's 20dB pad). For grungy guitar or otherwise overdriven sounds the speaker plays more of a part... mic those up. Keyboards, steel... DI should be great.

Anything you can do to lessen the amount of open mics on stage will improve the total sound, especially on a crowded stage. Small stage, loud band, lots of mic'ed stuff... results in a mess. DI the bass, trigger the kick drum, keep the guitar amps out of the vocal mics.
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Clete Ritta · From: San Antonio, Texas

Ive been using the XLR out of my NV 1000 with no complaints. I also carry a 3-to-2 ground lift adapter for the power cable just in case theres any hum from lights or a ground loop somewhere. One nice thing about the XLR out is that the signal is pre-master volume. I can adjust my stage volume with the master volume without affecting the sound level out to the board.

Ive been looking at the Sennheiser e609 as well. They sound really good on speaker cabs, and are angled to face the speaker when hung over the top without a stand or clip, as opposed to the 90 degree off-axis pattern you get by hanging a typical 57 or 58. Ive been debating spending a little extra for the e906, but I cant imagine it sounds a whole lot better. Anyone compare the two?

Josh Yenne · From: Sonoma California

I cant imagine running a line out.. but then again I use tube amps and so much of the tone comes from that.

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Clete... Just Google "comparing sennheiser e609 and e906" and you will get lots of stuff. Even a YouTube video of someone testing both with the same guitar/amp setup.

Actually, here is the YouTube link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yrrVvoXJSQ
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

Clete Ritta · From: San Antonio, Texas

Richard, thanks for the link. The two mics do sound very similar when recording a clean guitar signal. It was only on the distorted guitar comparisons where I could hear a real distinct difference in tonality. The 609 seemed to have punchier midrange but not as much overall clarity. The 906 had a bit flatter midrange spectrum and a more balanced overall sound, IMO.

The mics appear to have been positioned in equal but opposite positions from the speaker. Then again, even a slight difference in mic placement affects phase and eq. I suppose either will work fine for clean pedal steel guitar, but since I do also double on guitar (occasionally with distortion), the 906 may just be worth the extra $.

Len Amaral · From: Rehoboth,MA 02769

Richard:

Thanks for the video with the Sennheiser mics. IMO, the 609 sounds more robust.

Thanks,

Lenny

Len Amaral · From: Rehoboth,MA 02769

Richard:

Thanks for the video with the Sennheiser mics. IMO, the 609 sounds more robust.

Thanks,

Lenny

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