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Topic: Non-pedal, 50's sound, 15" speaker recommendations? |
Jim Newberry
From:
Seattle, Upper Left America
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Posted 16 Aug 2013 1:30 pm |
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Hey Guys,
Some years ago, I built a Fender tweed Super (5F4) replica (2x10") which I've been really happy with for telecaster, but after trying a bunch of speakers, I just can't seem to get happy with the 10" speakers. I think I want to go "Pro". That means I want to rehouse the chassis in a 1x15" tweed Pro cabinet. I'm looking in to getting a TV-front cabinet made for me by Mather.
So, I'm looking for a thicker, 'tubey', 50's sound and I mostly see speaker recommendations here for squeaky clean, pristine, more modern sound for pedal steel. That's a great sound, but not quite what I'm after. I play (poorly) a '56 Stringmaster, which I'd like to have the speaker help fatten up.
I know there's lots of praise for the new Eminence Neo steel guitar speaker, but isn't that really more for the big iron Solid State / pedal steel amp world?
Any recommendations for something that's efficient, but has some midrange character to it? Emi Legend? Big Ben? Weber California ceramic?
_________________
"The Masher of Touch and Tone"
-1950 Fender Dual Pro 8
-1950's Fender Dual Pro 6
-Clinesmith D8
-Clinesmith 8-string Frypan
-Clinesmith Joaquin
-~1940 National New Yorker
-~1936 Rickenbacher B6
-Homebuilt Amps |
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Brad Bechtel
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 16 Aug 2013 1:53 pm
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Have you considered the Fender Excelsior amp for your needs? I think it depends on how loud you need to be, but this might work for you. Folks are reporting that different tubes and a speaker change allows for quite a bit of volume.
_________________
Brad’s Page of Steel
A web site devoted to acoustic & electric lap steel guitars |
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Jim Newberry
From:
Seattle, Upper Left America
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Posted 16 Aug 2013 2:06 pm
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Good thought Brad, but I do need the full 40 watts plus an efficient speaker for the place I've been playing. And... I did already build the amp guts, so I just want to put it in a new cabinet and pair that with a 15" speaker.
_________________
"The Masher of Touch and Tone"
-1950 Fender Dual Pro 8
-1950's Fender Dual Pro 6
-Clinesmith D8
-Clinesmith 8-string Frypan
-Clinesmith Joaquin
-~1940 National New Yorker
-~1936 Rickenbacher B6
-Homebuilt Amps |
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Rich Hlaves
From:
Wildomar, California, USA
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Posted 16 Aug 2013 2:17 pm
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Well, Vintage and alnico come to mind if I envision your needs correctly. A period correct Jensen P15N should give you a bit of hair when push and not be so steril sounding. A smooth speaker for sure.
If Tone Tubby has a 15" alnico hemp cone that may work as well.
I'm going through the same thing with my tweed Twin at the moment. I've pretty much settled on a pair of vintage C12N for that amp. I have Weber Neo 12s in it now and it's wonderful up until the sweet spot. Beyond that it is no fun at all. I may try a pair of Canabis Rex in there to.
_________________
On man....let the smoke out of another one. |
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Jim Newberry
From:
Seattle, Upper Left America
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Posted 16 Aug 2013 2:41 pm
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... and I also need to have a 4-ohm speaker to avoid a new output transformer. I don't think I have a multitap secondary on mine...
_________________
"The Masher of Touch and Tone"
-1950 Fender Dual Pro 8
-1950's Fender Dual Pro 6
-Clinesmith D8
-Clinesmith 8-string Frypan
-Clinesmith Joaquin
-~1940 National New Yorker
-~1936 Rickenbacher B6
-Homebuilt Amps |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 16 Aug 2013 2:53 pm
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| A JBL K130 will deliver the most acoustical output without adding distortion to the sound of the amp itself. |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 16 Aug 2013 3:00 pm
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| re: Weber Cali, ceramic--I have liked that enough to have bought 7 of them in various sizes & impedances for various applications over the years. But I would think it is too clean & maybe too sterile for what you describe. If I were committed to that sort of speaker (and there's no reason you should be), you might look at their other speakers of that class such as Chicago or Michigan (neither of which I have ever tried). |
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Jim Newberry
From:
Seattle, Upper Left America
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Posted 16 Aug 2013 4:11 pm
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From looking at them, I think I'm leaning toward the Weber Chicago Vintage 15F150A and the Vintage Series 15F150. It looks like there's a little bit bigger magnet on the Chicago and a slightly different cone, but I can't really picture how those would differ from each other. They have 4 Ohm, 50 Watt versions of each.
Anybody know if Weber still offers "break-in" services?
_________________
"The Masher of Touch and Tone"
-1950 Fender Dual Pro 8
-1950's Fender Dual Pro 6
-Clinesmith D8
-Clinesmith 8-string Frypan
-Clinesmith Joaquin
-~1940 National New Yorker
-~1936 Rickenbacher B6
-Homebuilt Amps |
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Steven Paris
From:
Los Angeles
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Posted 16 Aug 2013 7:25 pm Vintage Speaker sound
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I don't know if the following is true, but it shore is gol-dang interesting!:
http://vintagefenderamprepair.com/speakers/
Finally! A new production speaker that truly brings your vintage Fender to life!
Jupiter Condenser has done it again. I had spent years searching for a speaker that sounded as good as the original Jensen Special Design that blew out in my 1959 tweed Vibrolux. I tried them all, but nothing brought out the brilliant sound of that beautiful tweed circuit quite like that old Jensen. Forrest White (the general manager of the Fender factory under Leo Fender) wrote in his book Fender: The Inside Story that Leo claimed the magic ingredient of the tweed bassman was the Jensen “special design” speakers! I still loved the Vibrolux, but it was lacking that special something it once had. Big time.
Then Jupiter started making speakers.
As soon as I installed that 10″ Jupiter into my Vibrolux and hit that first chord, I knew my search was over. My amp was alive again! Incredibly full three dimensional sound; rich, detailed mids loaded with beautiful harmonic overtones, tight punchy bottom end, sweet round highs, the Jupiters had it all! And the DETAIL!! WOW!!!
Chris Young at Jupiter Condenser modeled his speakers after the Jensen Special Design speakers of the late 50′s, but they are not clones. They were designed to bring out the subtle nuances, articulate response and full rich sound those classic speakers but with some modern tweaks to enhance performance. And he nailed it.
These speakers come highly recommended by Vintage Fender Amp Repair. People write in all the time, asking what capacitor kit will fix their flubby low end. While new filter caps might help tighten up the sound a bit, the real fix is is to upgrade your speaker! Believe us, the Fender circuits are not inherently flubby in the low end – they are designed to handle the entire range of instruments (and they deliver)! It’s the speakers that wear out and get soft & farty as the years go by.
Not only do these speakers sound incredible, they look great too! And lets face it, when you’re dealing with your vintage Fender, looks are important! |
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Brett Lanier
From:
Hermitage, TN
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Posted 16 Aug 2013 10:02 pm
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| Jim Newberry wrote: |
| Any recommendations for something that's efficient, but has some midrange character to it? |
I have an old Jensen Vibranto 15"(4ohm) in my combo'd bandmaster. For me, it does just what you're describing, but it's still clean enough for most pedal steel gigs. I've tried just about every kind of steel guitar type speaker in that amp(which is similar in output to your super), and the Jensen sounds the best.
Looks like this... Link to image from bluestalk.com forum |
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Gary Meixner
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 20 Aug 2013 6:24 am
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Jim,
I have been on a similar quest for some time and have found that alnicos in general seem to have a slightly more compressed sound with fatter mids, that become even more noticeable as you increase the volume, which to my ears is what that 50's tubey sound is all about - this isn't true though with vintage JBL, EV or similar vintage high end speakers. I also think a less efficient speaker adds to the sound and may be what you are looking for.
Contrary to everything I have just said I have 12" Cannabis Rex in my modified Blues Jr. and it sounds great. I converted the FBJ to use 6L6's and it puts out around 30 watts. The vintage speakers I tried sounded fantastic but the low end was a little too loose. The Cannabis Rex fixed this with slightly less character in the mids. I bet though a modern alnico like the Jupiter or the Weber Vintage would nail the sound I am after, and when I have some extra cash I will try one.
Gary Meixner |
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Jim Newberry
From:
Seattle, Upper Left America
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Posted 20 Aug 2013 9:57 am
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I did find a deal on a slightly-used Weber 15F150 (ceramic) which will be my starting point (maybe my ending point, too!) for this project. I'm having a Mather TV-front Pro cabinet made and we'll let y'all know how it all turns out. Thanks for your insight, all.
_________________
"The Masher of Touch and Tone"
-1950 Fender Dual Pro 8
-1950's Fender Dual Pro 6
-Clinesmith D8
-Clinesmith 8-string Frypan
-Clinesmith Joaquin
-~1940 National New Yorker
-~1936 Rickenbacher B6
-Homebuilt Amps |
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Jim Newberry
From:
Seattle, Upper Left America
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Posted 7 Oct 2013 8:52 am
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Here's my update... With some consultation with sources I trust, I made a minor circuit change to the first preamp tube voicing (changed the 25uF bypass cap to a 250uF to allow for a bit more low frequencies, like a Bassman setup), and installed it in the new TV-Front Pro cab with a Weber 15F150 (like a Jensen C15N). I also bumped up the value of the first filter cap a little.
I finally got to play it out at gig volume on Saturday and was really happy with it. OK, now I understand the 15" speaker for steel thing. It sounded bigger, throatier, louder, all in a good way.
Those are dog toys in the left of the picture. Makes it a bit more "arty" doesn't it?
_________________
"The Masher of Touch and Tone"
-1950 Fender Dual Pro 8
-1950's Fender Dual Pro 6
-Clinesmith D8
-Clinesmith 8-string Frypan
-Clinesmith Joaquin
-~1940 National New Yorker
-~1936 Rickenbacher B6
-Homebuilt Amps |
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Tim Whitlock
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 15 Oct 2013 3:00 am
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| Nice looking rig! |
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Jim Newberry
From:
Seattle, Upper Left America
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Posted 15 Oct 2013 12:31 pm
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Thanks, Tim. I wish the guy would spend more time learning to play it than tinkering....
_________________
"The Masher of Touch and Tone"
-1950 Fender Dual Pro 8
-1950's Fender Dual Pro 6
-Clinesmith D8
-Clinesmith 8-string Frypan
-Clinesmith Joaquin
-~1940 National New Yorker
-~1936 Rickenbacher B6
-Homebuilt Amps |
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 15 Oct 2013 9:41 pm
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When I think of Vance Terry I think of his V Front Super sound or his 25L15 sound.
Early supers and pros were essentially the same chassis. Try with an outboard 15 alnico Jensen, see which you prefer. I used to have a true 1950 Pro and I traded it away keeping my 1950 V Front. It is a full time hobby trying different 6SC7s to find the least micro phonic.
_________________
Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars. |
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Jim Newberry
From:
Seattle, Upper Left America
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Posted 16 Oct 2013 9:35 am
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Chris, this setup started out as a 5F4 Super I built a few years ago. The 5E5-A Pro of the same era is a nearly identical circuit, aside from the size of the NFB resistor in the Presence circuit (accounting for different output transformer between Super and Pro). I just couldn't get a beefy sound from the 2x10 setup after trying several types of speakers. They probably sounded great on the dance floor, but up close it just didn't do it for me. My tweed Deluxe (1x12) sounds great, but not enough headroom for bigger gigs.
Anyway, I'm happy with the 1950 cosmetics, late fifties modified circuit, and this speaker (for now!).
I have a pal with an original TV-Front Pro and he said it's always been impossible to find 6SC7s that weren't microphonic!
Can you point me to some recordings of Vance Terry in his V-front Super (+ Bigsby) days? I think I only have later stuff (like with Jimmie Rivers).
_________________
"The Masher of Touch and Tone"
-1950 Fender Dual Pro 8
-1950's Fender Dual Pro 6
-Clinesmith D8
-Clinesmith 8-string Frypan
-Clinesmith Joaquin
-~1940 National New Yorker
-~1936 Rickenbacher B6
-Homebuilt Amps |
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 16 Oct 2013 9:49 am
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I will find some recordings for you when I get home. Vance Terry appeared to use a Magnatone Triplex as well.
_________________
Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 16 Oct 2013 5:33 pm
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| I would think that if you want that '50s sound, you really should consider a '50s era speaker, something on the order of an old Rola, Utah, or Jensen, with the plug magnet. These old speakers have low efficiency, but a presence and brilliance that you just don't get with the heavy cones and big magnets of modern speakers. |
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Tommy Boswell
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 17 Oct 2013 3:10 am
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| This may be off-topic, since you said 15 inch. But I get my best fat tubey tone from a 2x12 cabinet loaded with a mix of Eminence Patriot 12 inch speakers, a Red White and Blues, plus a Cannabis Rex. And the solid-pine cabinet might be adding some fat too. |
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Jim Newberry
From:
Seattle, Upper Left America
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Posted 17 Oct 2013 9:53 am
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Donny, I agree and may try to track down a 50's alnico at some point. Right now, the efficiency is pretty important.
Tommy, I'm sure the cabinet is a big part of that. The big, solid pine cabinet I got from Mather will do the trick. People rave about the hempcone speakers. Wonder why nobody makes one in 15"... It can't just be the cost. I'd bet the price of pot is down due to all the med-mari around! 
_________________
"The Masher of Touch and Tone"
-1950 Fender Dual Pro 8
-1950's Fender Dual Pro 6
-Clinesmith D8
-Clinesmith 8-string Frypan
-Clinesmith Joaquin
-~1940 National New Yorker
-~1936 Rickenbacher B6
-Homebuilt Amps |
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