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Author Topic:  Knee Lever Names
Jeff Metz Jr.


From:
York, Pennsylvania, USA
Post  Posted 1 Aug 2013 12:57 am    
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I know there are a bunch of people ( along with myself) that get confused with this, so I would like someone to clarify. With pedal steel pedals you have typically A,B,and C pedals. If you have more than 3 pedals do they go in order? Also with knee levers I often see them being referred to as "F" lever ,"E" lever. etc. I know them as LKL,LKR,RKL,RKR. What are they referring to with F lever and E lever?
THanks
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Lane Gray


From:
Topeka, KS
Post  Posted 1 Aug 2013 1:44 am    
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Only the F and X levers (½ step raise of Es and ½ step lowers of Bs, respectively) have anything approaching universal meaning.
The E and D levers mean either lowering the Es or lowering 2 (and often, but not always, 9). But which is which isn't standardized. Just when I think it means one, somebody talks about the other.
The G lever used to mean ½step raise of 1, paired with either ½ step raise of 7 or whole step lower of 6. But some folks call the whole step 1/½step raise of 2 a G lever.

Fortunately, it only makes for confusion in discussions, as tab would become self-evident by string allocation.

In short:
F= Es to E# (go ahead, call it F: the third of a C# chord is E#)
X= Bs to A#
D, E, G and any others = situationally variable.

Remember that calling them by position doesn't help much either. They're not in the same places on every guitar.
As for extra pedals, they don't get letters. There's the Franklin Pedal, which drops 5,6 & 10 a whole step. Beyond that, we kinda have to call 'em by what they do.
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John Scanlon


From:
Jackson, Mississippi, USA
Post  Posted 1 Aug 2013 7:10 am    
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Lane Gray wrote:
Only the F and X levers (½ step raise of Es and ½ step lowers of Bs, respectively) have anything approaching universal meaning.

...

X= Bs to A#

That's funny, Lane - I thought this one was not settled, either. I could have sworn this lever is sometimes referred to as the H lever, as well. I thought perhaps Mickey Adams calls it the H lever early in his book?
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Richard Sinkler


From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
Post  Posted 1 Aug 2013 7:11 am    
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Tony Glassman


From:
The Great Northwest
Post  Posted 1 Aug 2013 7:23 am    
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Never heard of an "X" lever in 40+ years of steel playing. There is no universally accepted nomenclature for knee levers. I use:

"F" lever = E->F
"E's down lever" = E->Eb
"B's down lever" = B->Bb
"D lever"= 2nd string to D (+/-C#) and 9th string D->C#

The rest are all described more fully by their function.

This would be a great SGF project. Members could devise a universal abbreviation knee lever naming convention that we would all use, via discussion and final vote.


Last edited by Tony Glassman on 1 Aug 2013 7:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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Dan Beller-McKenna


From:
Durham, New Hampshire, USA
Post  Posted 1 Aug 2013 7:29 am    
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The problem with naming the levers D-G (or H) is that then some people expect them to be located straight across from left to right (i.e., D=LKL, E=LKR, etc.), which, of course is not the case and not standardized anyway.

I think of them the way Tony has them listed. We're an army of 2.

Very Happy
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Dale Hansen


From:
Hendersonville,Tennessee, (USA)
Post  Posted 1 Aug 2013 7:30 am    
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I agree with Lane, for the most part, here.
"E" lever lowers the E's - the "F" lever raises the E's to F, (...regardless of where they're located. > LKL, LKR..) The "D" lever, generally refers to the 2nd string lower/lower. (Often tabbed as D-L, & D-LL)
My only point of contention is that I've never even heard of an "X' lever, before this very day. Most of us 'oldtimers' probably refer to that one as the "V" lever (vertical), or as the "Bb" lever, as that is the most common use for that particular lever.
In fairly recent developments, there has also been a "Z" lever designated, by Bobbe Seymour,...But,I have no idea what it's function is...

(*10:35 A.M. -I must be getting slower in my old age... Four posts popped up as I was replying to this, > which may lead to a false impression that I have a careless disregard for other folks opinions. Not so...)
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Lane Gray


From:
Topeka, KS
Post  Posted 1 Aug 2013 7:49 am    
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OK, I amend my earlier statement.
Only the F lever approaches universality.
I'd thought about naming the F#-G#/D#-E lever "Bob" (not B0b), but then I spoiled that by putting it on a pedal.
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Mike Perlowin


From:
Los Angeles CA
Post  Posted 1 Aug 2013 8:48 am    
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Dan Beller-McKenna wrote:
The problem with naming the levers D-G (or H) is that then some people expect them to be located straight across from left to right (i.e., D=LKL, E=LKR, etc.), which, of course is not the case and not standardized anyway.



2 or 3weeks ago I mt a beginner with a Carter Starter what made that exact assumption.


Lane is correct. Technically, the change is E to E#. But E to F is a lot easier,

I try to always refer to the levers as E to F, or B to Bb, in all my posts.Sometimes I use a dash instead of the word "to." ( E-F, B-Bb)
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Richard Sinkler


From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
Post  Posted 1 Aug 2013 10:23 am    
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Mike Perlowin wrote:
Dan Beller-McKenna wrote:
The problem with naming the levers D-G (or H) is that then some people expect them to be located straight across from left to right (i.e., D=LKL, E=LKR, etc.), which, of course is not the case and not standardized anyway.



2 or 3weeks ago I mt a beginner with a Carter Starter what made that exact assumption.


Lane is correct. Technically, the change is E to E#. But E to F is a lot easier,


I try to always refer to the levers as E to F, or B to Bb, in all my posts.Sometimes I use a dash instead of the word "to." ( E-F, B-Bb)


I asked my brother's music professor one time about this and he said because the open tuning is based on a form of an E chord, that "F" would be the proper designation in the key of E. The only time it is an E# is when it is used with the A pedal making the C# chord. The F in the E scale would be a flatted 9, which is a very common usage of the F note. Also, the F becomes the root of the F diminished chord (open), and the sharped 5th of an A augmented chord with the A & B pedals (again at the open position).
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John Scanlon


From:
Jackson, Mississippi, USA
Post  Posted 1 Aug 2013 10:30 am    
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I'm mostly with Richard on this. While Lane is right on the money about the C# example, who says that every time we engage the lever we're making a major third in the key of C#? No need to get into enharmonic designations.

However, I disagree with Richard that F is the aug. fifth of an A+ chord - in that context, it is an E#. But it's all context.

I mean, in a B-flat dim. chord, the open 7th and 4th strings are technically F-flat. Do you say you play an Fb9 tuning???
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Last edited by John Scanlon on 1 Aug 2013 10:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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Brint Hannay

 

From:
Maryland, USA
Post  Posted 1 Aug 2013 10:36 am    
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The designation "X lever" for the lever lowering the B's to Bb/A# (choose your preferred name) was originated by Jeff Newman.
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Richard Sinkler


From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
Post  Posted 1 Aug 2013 11:02 am    
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Quote:
However, I disagree with Richard that F is the aug. fifth of an A+ chord - in that context, it is an E#. But it's all context.


I stand corrected. Good point John.
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Mark van Allen


From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
Post  Posted 1 Aug 2013 11:11 am    
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This is a confusing thing for students especially, and I suppose for those who like order out of chaos.
I had always thought the levers were lettered kind of as they were introduced into the tuning... we had pedals A, B, C, here comes a lever, let's call that "D"...
I think Jeff Newman kind of arbitrarily lettered the levers for use in his courses and teaching, and so many folks took his seminars or bought courses that it became almost convention.
Some tab courses, like Doug Jernigan's, are labeled underneath with RKL, LKR, and so on, but as some of his levers are somewhat unconventional another user might have to continually refer to the labeling key or even make changes in the tab to accommodate their own setup. While most pros can translate on the fly (as with Day to Emmons notation) this seems to be a sticking point for beginners.
With my own students I've most often found them expecting the "E", "F" and so on to relate to notes on the guitar, and since the E lever affects the E strings, and the F lever makes an F note... but the others... confusing...

Frankly, with the adjustability of modern guitars and the inherent experimental proclivity of players, I think we'll never see a completely standardized knee lever setup, making it difficult to set a standard for labeling. With my own students, I refer to the floor pedals as A, B, C (helps to separate the floor from knee functions) and levers as "Raise 4 & 8" , "Lower 2 and 9", and so on, wring them in Tab as R, L, LL for a whole step lower.

Jimmy Crawford's Musymtab was the best system I've seen for tab notation, but I've found the sharps and flats scare the hell out of many students. The most important thing is to know what string(s) your lever operates on, and what it's musical function is, so (for tab) a R, L, or LL written on the string affected seems to make the most sense.
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Michael Strauss


From:
Delray Beach,Florida
Post  Posted 1 Aug 2013 11:30 am    
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Hard to believe anyone actually learns to play a psg with the lack of standards, but somehow we do. Smile
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Richard Sinkler


From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
Post  Posted 1 Aug 2013 11:33 am    
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As long as you know what the pedal/lever does, it isn't hard to figure out what you should be activating when looking at tab.
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 1 Aug 2013 2:09 pm    
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"LKL" refers to the left knee lever that moves left. "F" refers to the lever that raises both E strings to F (or E# Razz). Often, but not always, they mean the same thing.

"P1" refers to the first pedal. "A" refers to the pedal that raises both B strings to C#. Often, but not always, they mean the same thing.

To avoid ambiguity, tab should use the single letter names. As for "D" vs. "E" (the old name vs. the new), the meaning is always obvious from what string is being moved.
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Pete Burak

 

From:
Portland, OR USA
Post  Posted 1 Aug 2013 3:31 pm    
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I think they should be labeled more like this:
E>F Lever (as in, "Some players have their "E to F Lever" [E>F] on "Right Knee Left" [RKL].

So the basic Lever functions are:
E>F lever
E>Eb Lever
B>Bb Lever
D#>D Lever

I would agree that we could just call them what they they do when enguaged.
F Lever
Eb Lever
Bb Lever
D Lever

Isn't the lever that raises the high F# and D# to G# and E respectively associated with some famous players name? I can't remember because I don't have that change.

Of course the word Lever is actually to be pronounced "LEE-ver", right?
Embarassed Laughing Smile

I also have a G Lever [G#>G] on [RKL2].
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Mike Heugel


From:
Taylor, Michigan, USA
Post  Posted 1 Aug 2013 3:36 pm    
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I've adopted a version of Joe Wrights naming convention as a beginner to keep me reminded of the function.

48+, or forty eight positive, or forty eight up
48-, or forty eight negative, or forty eight down
29-, or twenty nine negative, or twenty nine down.
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Lane Gray


From:
Topeka, KS
Post  Posted 1 Aug 2013 3:43 pm    
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What would you call 1st F#-G and 6th G#-F# 16 posinegative?
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Jim Horan

 

From:
California, USA
Post  Posted 1 Aug 2013 4:18 pm     Knee levers
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Here is Mel Bay's tuning chart
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Pete Burak

 

From:
Portland, OR USA
Post  Posted 1 Aug 2013 4:26 pm    
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I think we're all looking for a 21st century solution.
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Ray Anderson

 

From:
Jenkins, Kentucky USA
Post  Posted 1 Aug 2013 4:49 pm    
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I think shift levers on automobiles went through this same nomenclature hiccup.But I can't recall it stopping anyone from driving. Learn your strings and lever functions and when you look at the tab it should be obvious. That's how I approached it. Noobs have to put a little work and study into it first, you can't expect everything to be " laid out" , I didn't and doing well I might add. JMHO Cool
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Dickie Whitley

 

Post  Posted 1 Aug 2013 5:05 pm    
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...

Last edited by Dickie Whitley on 5 Aug 2013 2:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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John Scanlon


From:
Jackson, Mississippi, USA
Post  Posted 1 Aug 2013 6:13 pm    
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As far as tab goes, I like Winnie's solution of putting an R (for raise) and L (for lower) on the line for the string. You know which string it is affecting, obviously, by which line it's written on, with no need for it indicating what that lever does to other strings (unless they're being played, too). Of course, my guitar had a fixed copedent, so I didn't have the whole-step or half-step issue, but you could put ++ or + and - or --.
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