Diminished Chord Question

Chuck Blake · From: West Virginia, USA

Can someone please explain to me how to play a diminished chord Question

. I have researched the past post and have found most threads go into theory and other topics about movements to and from these chords.

I would like a simple explanation on pedal/lever positioning and which appropriate grips should be used based on let's say a C#dim or D#dim chord.

I play by ear and have a difficult time rationalizing the discussions as most posters explain theory at a higher level than my 1 1/2 years of experience (with no formal lessons) allows.

Thanks in advance.

Chuck
_________________
2010 Rains 3x5 SD10, 2006 Rains 3x5 SD10 Powered by Quilter Tone Block 202 and 15' and 12' Custom Speaker cabs

Howard Steinberg · From: St. Petersburg, Florida , USA

Simple method: any of the 4 major grips. For the diminished of the major chord you have played, drop down 1 fret and raise strings 4 and 8.

Not to get too detailed but it is helpful to know that the chord will repeat at 3 fret intervals with different voicings.
_________________
Justice Pro Lite (4-5), Justice D-10 (8-5)x2 , Quilter Steelaire, Hilton Pedal, BJ's bar.

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Easiest way to play C#dim triad on standard E9 is at fret 5, no pedals, strings 5 6 9.
When people write C#dim, they often mean C#dim7. The 7 note would be string 4 or 8, raised a half step.

Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

Hope the following helps!

I see from your profile that you play a SD-10 so I assume that you play the E9th tuning.

You can play a three note diminished chord on strings 5,6 and 9, open, no pedals This chord would work for a D, F, G#, or B diminished.

You can play a 4 note diminished chord on strings 5,6,8 and 9 by adding the E to F knee lever (raising string 8 up a half tone). Same Chords as above.

You can also play a 4 note diminished chord on strings 5,6,7 and 8 by pressing pedal A half way, pedal B, knee lever E (string 8 lowered a half tone). You can also get this by split tuning on string 5 to raise it up a half tone instead of pressing Pedal A half way. This will give you a D#, F#, A or C diminished.

You can move the bar up one fret to get a C# diminished out of the above example. The diminished chords repeat every 3 frets an open C diminished is a D# diminished at fret 3 but can also be called a C diminished since it includes the C note etc.

These are the ones I use the most and there are many other grips and pedal changes that can be used.

Greg

Chuck Blake · From: West Virginia, USA

Thanks Greg, Howard and Earnest for your reply and the simplicity. Maybe after I retire in an year or so I can work on theory Confused

.

Chuck
_________________
2010 Rains 3x5 SD10, 2006 Rains 3x5 SD10 Powered by Quilter Tone Block 202 and 15' and 12' Custom Speaker cabs

Dickie Whitley · Posted 5 Jul 2013 8:08 am

Chuck, if I may be so bold as to suggest you get Jeff Newman's E9th Chord Dictionary course (the DVD)?

Jeff shows you how to get nearly any chord you want with the regular ABC pedals and the E lower/raise levers along with the 2nd string lower. He gives you patterns that you can use to easily remember the locations.

Hope this helps, it did me.

Chuck Blake · From: West Virginia, USA

Thanks Dickie. I'll try to find one or order the DVD. I have some of Jeff's stuff but I'm know that I do not have that particular piece.
_________________
2010 Rains 3x5 SD10, 2006 Rains 3x5 SD10 Powered by Quilter Tone Block 202 and 15' and 12' Custom Speaker cabs

Stuart Legg · Posted 6 Jul 2013 1:32 am

I have not seen or heard this discussed to any degree before in any ones teaching methods.
I think you might find it an interest way (not the only way) to put the diminished chord into perspective.

Finding a certain diminished chord is not very helpful in that when you find it you just know where it’s at and what it’s called.

The name of a diminished chord is not much help at all in telling you where it might be used in a chord progression.

The diminished chord is a passing chord so it needs to resolve to another chord.

Let’s assume we are in the key of “A” and the diminished chord we wanted to find is a (G#)dim.
So we do like folks say here and we find that (G#)dim chord. Now we know it repeats every 3 frets but the past that bit of information the name (G#)dim gives us no clue to what chord it might resolve to in the key of “A“.

The diminished chord has other names. Two different 7th flat 9th without the root.
So let’s rename that (G#)dim chord to it’s other names. It would be an E7b9 or a G7b9.
Since we are in the key of “A” an E7b9 appears to be the better choice to name it.

Now with it’s new name we can easily see that it is a form of E7 so it will resolve to some form of “A” chord.
We can also see if we start with a 3 note E7 chord without the root and move it up or down in 3 fret increments it will incorporate the complete E7b9 as we move up or down the neck.

Since it repeats every 3 frets it gives us plenty of places on the neck to resolve to any form of “A” chord anywhere on the neck.

Now we apply that principle to the chord cycle and the diminished chord (7th flat 9th) begins to make sense.
The name E7 in bar #2 should be E9.

Robert Daniels · From: Chicago, Illinois, USA

This is a great topic. So if the G#dim is also G7b9, it seems like it would also resolve to Cmaj, which subs for Am7. So you could go Amaj, G#dim, Amin7? Cool way to get to a 1min chord. I'm heading to the studio to give it a shot.
_________________
Emmons Student Model 3x4,Twin Reverb with JBL's, clams galore!

Stuart Legg · Posted 6 Jul 2013 10:43 am

Actually it’s 4 different 7th flat 9ths.
I meant to say there are usually 2 names of the four that will apply to the selected key.
In this instance it would be the E7b9 and the rarely used (C#)7b9 that would be most appropriate for the key of “A”. for all practical purposes the E7b9 is the weapon of choice.

Bo Legg · Posted 6 Jul 2013 12:06 pm

Let’s also look at other possibilities of the diminished chord with it’s real name.
For instance when you move back one fret from your chord of choice and slide it up to that chord or you make your common quick 1 4 1 chord country move you are using a diminished chord approach without realizing it.

CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

getting a diminished chord by
engaging lever F & picking combinations on strings 10 8 6 5 4 3
Lever F raises the Es to F : 4 & 8 at fret 0 by a half tone/step

- pedal A & B along w: lever E : Es to Eb 4 & 8 at fret 0 & Lever V : B to Bb on 5
picking combinations of strings 8 7 6 5 4 3

Rule of thumb for dim° chord ° in C
Raise any one of the 4 notes, which make a dominant 7th chord, a half step/tone to get a dim° chord

Root C to C#°
Major 3 E to F°
5th G to G#°
Dom 7th Bb to B°

Chuck Blake · From: West Virginia, USA

Thanks to everyone that posted to my question

Two things came out of it for me, one being finding the chords and secondly causing me to work on my "big strings" grips Very Happy

_________________
2010 Rains 3x5 SD10, 2006 Rains 3x5 SD10 Powered by Quilter Tone Block 202 and 15' and 12' Custom Speaker cabs

CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

them " wide " gripe are where it's at Chuck
like the Limbo - how low can you go ?... Winking

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

It's worth mentioning that a diminished chord is all intervals of a "minor third".

No wonder it sounds so unresolved.

Clete Ritta · From: San Antonio, Texas

It may also be worth mentioning that the Whole Diminished Seventh and the diminished triad both contain only minor thirds.

When a diminished triad is expanded to four notes into a 7th chord, there are two types: Whole and Half.
The Whole Diminished Seventh contains all minor third intervals and repeats its inversions every three half steps. Thus, when the inversions of each are grouped together, there are only three different Full Diminished Seventh chords.

The Half Diminished is the natural Seventh chord in any given key (Bø7 in the key of C). It contains edit: two minor thirds, but the last interval is a major third. This is because it contains only the notes of a specific key. By flatting the 7th of a Half Diminished chord, it no longer contains the natural note of its key and becomes a Whole Diminished Seventh.

The Whole Diminished 7th is notated by a small circle (C°7), and the Half Diminished 7th is notated by a small circle with a diagonal line through it (Cø7).

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

Small correction: the half-diminished contains two minor thirds and a major third. Four notes, three intervals.

Anyway, the half-diminished--also known as minor7b5--is a different tonality and not really relevant to a "diminished" discussion.

Jeff Scott Brown · From: O'Fallon Missouri, USA

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

Jeff, at the risk of stepping on Joey's answer, that's exactly the situation. A diminished triad is root, b3, b5- which are all the same intervallic distance of a minor third (three semitones) apart. A true diminished 7th consists of Root, b3, b5 and bb7 (yes, same as the 6th tone) again, all a minor third apart. You can hear the tone stack easily by picking any root note, and then moving up on the same string in three fret intervals.
This should make it clear why each diminished chord can be thought of as having four possible root notes, and why so many diminished "licks" involve moving the chord up or down three frets, and three again...
A really cool chord, arpeggio, or line with many resolutions and connections. Among other players, Chalker made lengthy lines out of diminished chords (with sometimes, to me, no discernible theoretical basis!) that he seemed to resolve to just about anything. Magic!
_________________
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com

Chuck Blake · From: West Virginia, USA

It appears my original post lost some of it's meaning. Don't ya think. I was afraid of this.

A theory fight Whoa!

_________________
2010 Rains 3x5 SD10, 2006 Rains 3x5 SD10 Powered by Quilter Tone Block 202 and 15' and 12' Custom Speaker cabs

Clete Ritta · From: San Antonio, Texas

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

I don't know of any 'theory fight' Chuck, but you did ask a bunch of steel pickers about finding and using diminished chords, so it figures you're gonna get a load of theory talk because, well, that's how it's done Cool

The so-called "diminished" chord consists of four notes, each a minor third apart - i.e. the interval between the first and third notes of a minor scale, 3 half-tones, the equivalent of three frets on the same string.

This 1 1/2 step interval is also found between the 6th and the 8th (1 octave above the first) notes, and the 5th and b7th notes. As such the 7b9 or 'diminished' chord has its feet equally planted in four directions and invites a rudimentary study of theory in order to apply it properly. Hang in there, you can do this too.

Your brethren here are doing an admirable job of providing what you have asked for, I suggest that you take your time to review carefully each of the replies you have received, and I guarantee you'll emerge a better player for the effort.

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

Chuck, my apologies if my reply seems counter to your request. No "fight" at all, just the hope, as Dave articulates, that a little exposition will make things EASIER on you, rather than more complicated. For instance, the point that all the notes in a diminished chord are a minor third apart IS the reason why diminished chords can have four names, which really confuses some folks, and why you can play a diminished chord and just slide it up 3,6,or 9 frets for some great sounds.
Please don't be turned off by 'theory"... you can take it in as small of a dose as desired, and every bit of it is helpful, and actually speeds up the learning curve.

Take it from a guy who used to hate it!
_________________
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com

Clete Ritta · From: San Antonio, Texas

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

MVA, Thanks for answering the qustion directed at me.
You are correct and it saved me some keystrokes.

Chuck,
Thanks for letting the post go beyond your original question. The first few posts gave you the advice you were seeking, the rest might be of interest to you someday. It'll still be here after you get more theory absorbed. We were all in that situation at one time.

I don't see any fight here, just a productive discussion.

Forum Index > Pedal Steel	Goto page 1, 2 Next	Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic