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Topic: MSA Sidekick vs Red Baron |
Jack Hanson
From:
San Luis Valley, USA
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Posted 1 Jul 2013 3:20 am |
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| Does anyone know the difference between the old MSA Student Models? Was the Red Baron always red and the Sidekick always black? Beside their monikers, were they both the same under the hood? Does one predate the other, or were they manufactured concurrently? |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 1 Jul 2013 4:25 am
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I owned a new Red Baron in 77 or 78. It was black. It also had the integral volume pedal. A friend of mine had a black Sidekick later in about 1990 or so. They looked the same to me except it didn't have the built in VP. Same molded case etc. I couldn't see any difference in the construction etc. ....both 3 pedals and 1 knee. I don't know if the KL had the same function for both models.
Someone else will know for sure, but I believe the Sidekick came after the Red Baron. |
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Walter Killam
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 1 Jul 2013 6:25 am different guts
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Hi Jack,
I have an old Red Baron, and it has a sliding lever arrangement to make the pulls:
The Sidekick has a more Standard (by today's standards) axle system:
I've never worked with a Sidekick, but I suspect the hardware is more reliable than the Red Baron. as far as I know they are both Pull Release Mechanisms, and are both available in red & black, so you want to look at the mechanics to be sure which one you are looking at.[/img]
_________________
Mostly junque with a few knick-knacks that I really can't do without!
Last edited by Walter Killam on 6 Jul 2013 8:14 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 1 Jul 2013 6:57 am
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| I defer to Walter. There appears to be more difference that I remembered. |
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Jim Lindsey (Louisiana)
From:
Greenwell Springs, Louisiana (deceased)
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Posted 1 Jul 2013 8:08 pm
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My very first steel was an MSA Red Baron and its plastic body coating was a brown woodgrain finish (it was about 6 months old and I bought it from a guy named Normal Gilliamwater on 18 March 1976 in Altus OK for $300).
These are horrible photos taken with a little 110 camera, but here was mine:
Shortly after I got my Red Baron, I met a guy who had a Sidekick that was a very dark but shiny hunter green. We compared the two guitars and everything was the same, even the mechanics (like the sliding lever arrangement shown in Walter's photo) ... the only differences between his Sidekick and my Red Baron were the color and he had two actual MSA Classic styled knee levers on his Sidekick, whereas the one single knee lever on my Red Baron was a flat piece of aluminum that lowered only the 8th string a half step. It wasn't long at all after I got that little Red Baron that I turned around and bought my first double neck, an MSA Classic D-10 with 8 & 4.
Oddly enough, I ended up the owner of another Red Baron about ten years later when a fellow who'd bought one decided he didn't want to learn steel anymore; he called me up and said he had a Red Baron he'd like to give me and all I had to do was go and pick it up. When I arrived it was like looking at a ghost of my first steel ... it was exactly the same brown woodgrain and the whole nine yards. At first, I thought it might have been the same guitar, but soon realized it was only a twin. 
_________________
1986 Mullen D-10 with 8 & 7 (Dual Bill Lawrence 705 pickups each neck)
Two Peavey Nashville 400 Amps (with a Session 500 in reserve) - Yamaha SPX-90 II
Peavey ProFex II - Yamaha R-1000 Digital Reverb - Ross Time Machine Digital Delay - BBE Sonic Maximizer 422A
ProCo RAT R2DU Dual Distortion - Korg DT-1 Pro Tuner (Rack Mounted) - Furman PL-8 Power Bay
Goodrich Match-Bro by Buddy Emmons - BJS Steel Bar (Dunlop Finger Picks / Golden Gate Thumb Picks) |
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Jack Hanson
From:
San Luis Valley, USA
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Posted 3 Jul 2013 6:27 am
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Thanks Jerry, Walter, and Jim for your replies. My first pedal steel was a black MSA student model that I purchased new from Suneson’s Music Center on East Lake Street in Minneapolis (which was a country music institution in the Twin Cities for over half a century right up until the time Uncle Rog retired and closed the doors for the very last time around Christmas, 1999). I am trying to remember if it was a Red Baron or a Sidekick. I quickly outgrew it and traded up to a Sho-Bud Pro I.
Jerry -- I also purchased my MSA about ’77, or more likely early 1978, and it was also a black one. Likewise, I remember the integrated volume pedal and the molded case.
Walter -- Thank you for your concise explanation. Mine had the same lever arrangement underneath as in your first photo, so it may have been a black Red Baron.
Jim -- Given that your Red Baron was similar underneath to your acquaintance’s Sidekick, and later Sidekicks apparently had a different mechanism, there must have been some overlap between the two MSA student models. Mine also had one knee lever, but it lowered both E strings if I remember correctly.
Perhaps someone down in Dallas with first-hand knowledge will chime in with more information. I remember my Red Baron/Sidekick as an affordable little starter instrument with some obvious limitations. It would appear that a fair number of the members of this Forum cut their PSG teeth on these student model MSA pedal steel guitars. |
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Walter Killam
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 5 Jul 2013 6:02 am
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Hi Y'all - FWIW, I suspect quite a few Red Barons were "rebranded" as Sidekicks to add some value. If you look at the sidekick manual:
http://steelguitar.com/manuals/MSA_Sidekick_OwnersManual.pdf
it lists a mechanical chassis & roller shafts as part numbers.
I had forgotten about the woodgrain models, but I have seen a couple around.
_________________
Mostly junque with a few knick-knacks that I really can't do without! |
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Jim Lindsey (Louisiana)
From:
Greenwell Springs, Louisiana (deceased)
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Posted 5 Jul 2013 11:22 am
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Thanks, Walter. I kinda wondered if that was the case with my buddy's "Sidekick". Of course, it doesn't really matter all these years later, but when my buddy and I compared his "Sidekick" with my Red Baron, I do remember wondering at the time if the Sidekick was just an updated Red Baron with two knee levers instead of one. Later on, when I started seeing other Sidekicks and they all had the updated mechanics, I also remember briefly thinking back to my buddy's guitar and wondering if it was really a Red Baron with a new paint job and a Sidekick name plate stuck on it. I'm now assuming that's exactly what it was. 
Thinking back to that little woodgrain Red Baron of mine, I have to admit it was an interesting guitar. It was feather light for the most part and played surprisingly good for what it was and it had a surprisingly good tone. I actually held onto that little guitar for a number of years (mostly for sentimental reasons being my first steel), but eventually a buddy of mine, Mike Tsaltas, wanted it really bad and I sold it to him. It'd be interesting to run into Mike someday and find whatever became of that little guitar.
Walter, my MSA history is a little rusty, but am I correct in that, in the mid-late 70s, the Red Baron, Sidekick and Semi-Classic models were all available at the same time? Or, am I off on that?
_________________
1986 Mullen D-10 with 8 & 7 (Dual Bill Lawrence 705 pickups each neck)
Two Peavey Nashville 400 Amps (with a Session 500 in reserve) - Yamaha SPX-90 II
Peavey ProFex II - Yamaha R-1000 Digital Reverb - Ross Time Machine Digital Delay - BBE Sonic Maximizer 422A
ProCo RAT R2DU Dual Distortion - Korg DT-1 Pro Tuner (Rack Mounted) - Furman PL-8 Power Bay
Goodrich Match-Bro by Buddy Emmons - BJS Steel Bar (Dunlop Finger Picks / Golden Gate Thumb Picks) |
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Walter Killam
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 6 Jul 2013 8:14 am
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Hi Jim,
I don't really know the history of these either, I've researched the Red Baron as a point of curiosity. I got mine back in the 90s at a Dallas Guitar show (my first PSG), didn't know a thing about it, so I took it to Norris Family music where I was told to "get that abomination out of the store and come back when I was ready to buy a real guitar and amp"! (paraphrased)
The Barons are what they are, I use mine now as a test bed for non-pedal tunings, and the tone is surprisingly good for an inexpensive guitar. the mechanics of the guitar are simply unreliable IMOH.
_________________
Mostly junque with a few knick-knacks that I really can't do without! |
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Paul King
From:
Gainesville, Texas, USA
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Posted 7 Jul 2013 5:53 am
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| I have tried both of them many years ago. Surely not a slam on MSA but I sure happy I do not have to play one. Steel guitars today are so much better to play and even many student models are better too. |
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Dan Haas
From:
Rootstown, Ohio USA
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 10 Jul 2013 4:36 pm
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| Walter Killam wrote: |
| Hi Y'all - FWIW, I suspect quite a few Red Barons were "rebranded" as Sidekicks to add some value. |
I seriously doubt that. The Sidekick came first, and the 'Barons were essentially nothing more than a re-branded Sidekick, coming out several years later. There was a big push to get younger players into the fold in the '70s, and the "Red Baron" moniker seemed more appealing to the younger set. Though there were several iterations of both guitars, with crossrods and transfer bars, and stepped and non-stepped keyheads, they were all pretty much on a par with the main design parameter - a small, cheap, and lightweight guitar...suitable for the average beginner. |
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Walter Killam
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 11 Jul 2013 7:14 am
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Hi Donny,
You know more about the history of these guitars than I do, but I still suspect there were some less than scrupulous sellers that acquired Sidekick badges and applied them to Barons to raise the resale value.
If mechanisms were used in both, and if I was looking to buy one of these guitars, I would strongly prefer the cross shaft mechanism over the sliding bars.
_________________
Mostly junque with a few knick-knacks that I really can't do without! |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 11 Jul 2013 7:49 am
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| You may be right, but informed buyers wouldn't pay significantly more for a Sidekick that a Red Baron, because they're essentially the same guitar. I prefer the round shafts with pullers too, but in a cheap guitar, the operating differences are slight, IMHO, since you can add changes fairly easily to either one. |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 11 Jul 2013 9:16 am
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take a red baron worth $285 and change the name so you can sell it for $305 !! jackpot!
my first steel didn't have a name...but it had 4 pedals and somehow ended up with a knee lever or two. peter grant generously sold it to me for $75 and is now responsible for the steel guitar curse my life has been! |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 11 Jul 2013 9:17 am
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| ...and it was made out of real wood! |
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