SOLVED LKR sharp until released slightly after hitting stop

Keith Bolog · From: Wisconsin, USA

I think this happened to me once before. I am not sure how to search for this so will ask.

LKR to lower string 8 to Eb

String 4 perfect. String 8 sharp 20c. If you release the KL slightly it drops to where it should be. If you hold the KL and tune the pedal to Eb, upon the next LKR application it repeats the 20c sharp.

Rods for both Es are in the same bellcrank holes and activate together with a small amount of free play. adjusting the stop for more lever travel is ineffective. Roller nut smooth as silk. New strings. Everything seems correct, pretty tight not sloppy and no other changes are problematic.

Its a shobud LDG. Any hints?
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Sustainability is unsustainable

Jon Light (deceased) · From: Saugerties, NY

Is the F lever on 8 proper with a little bit of play?

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Sounds like you might have, in INCREASING order of likelihood: too gutsy a helper spring; or a weak return spring, or, MOST LIKELY, simple overtuning.
Loosen the nylon nut until it does nothing, even when the lever is activated. Then tune it normally. I bet that fixes it. My guess is you're pulling the raise finger
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Paul Wade · From: mundelein,ill

Keith what lane said: bring it down i will take a look for you
paul

Keith Bolog · From: Wisconsin, USA

Jon - yes thanx there is proper free play on the F lever.

Lane - tried the total detuning to no avail. Maybe you are on to something there with spring tension. Baffled here.

Paul - you da man.

Keep ideas coming, hoping to hear "I had that same problem, fixed it like this"

If I discover the fix Ill post it for reference. Thanks everyone.
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Sustainability is unsustainable

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Scissor friction? Last time the fingers got oiled? Lowers picking up raises is one sign of dryness.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

mike nolan · From: Forest Hills, NY USA

Sounds like a weak return spring, as Lane suggested. You have to get under the guitar, and see if the raise finger is being pulled along with the lower at the end of the travel. I have had this issue with 'Buds before.... (usually with a raise lifting a lower)
If you see the raise finger move with the lower, try to push it back to where it belongs. If that works, then you can tighten the return spring a little by removing it, cutting a coil off, re bending the end to hook it back up. If you can't move the raise back manually, then there is something else going on.

I am assuming that the axe has been properly lubed..... and that you did not change gauges/brands of strings right before the problem started.

Pictures might help, as there are different solutions/problems for different changers/pulling trains.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Sounds like the raise finger is moving at the limit of the lower. Either the changer fingers aren't free, or (more likely) the return spring is too tight. Having the return spring too tight is a common cause of this problem on all-pull guitars, and you either have to reduce the tension of the return spring, or use a heavier string guage on that string.

If there is a helper spring on that string, there's a small chance that may be causing a problem. Try removing it. Also, make sure the string isn't pulling to the side at the keyhead...ideally, all strings should be straight back to the tuning keys (when viewed from the top of the guitar).

Keith Bolog · From: Wisconsin, USA

Thanks for the tips, confirming here that it is clean and lubed, yes the raise is being pulled a little, and can be pushed back manually.

Looking closely at the return spring that pulls the KL rod back, you can see a few coils were clipped off of it at one time, so it is theoretically tighter than original. There is a helper spring underneath, which pulls the string back to pitch after pedal release, right, and if it is too tight that wouldnt let it lower enough?. I guess one of those is the culprit. Ill experiment.
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Sustainability is unsustainable

mike nolan · From: Forest Hills, NY USA

Donny,
On most all pull guitars, tightening the lower spring would make the problem worse... but on some Sho~Buds, the spring will help hold the entire finger back. Counter intuitive, I know, but I have found that to be the case.

Keith,

This thread contains some more useful info..

http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/013203.html

And, as always, knowing which era 'Bud we are dealing with would be helpful.

Keith Bolog · From: Wisconsin, USA

Mike Donny Lane et al thanks again solved it I think with your advice (Well, not completely)

First I tried adding some tension to the spring with a tool but it didnt help. So Mike in this case it needed less tension:

I removed the upper (raise) helper spring and it pulls to Eb and returns to pitch normally. I suppose it isnt necessary but why was it put there in the first place? The F raise works fine too. So I wont lose any sleep over why. Glad it was string 8 not 4 which has other demands put on it. Here is what it looks like. I think this is a later model LDG serial 18512.

Update: Eb is too loose when plucked and sounds rather dead. So there must be some tension necessary thats why the helper is there. Should be easy to tweak or replace the spring.

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Sustainability is unsustainable

mike nolan · From: Forest Hills, NY USA

Glad you got it working.... That guitar is Super-Pro era, so, yeah, my suggestions were slightly off the mark and more appropriate to earlier mechanisms.

Dan Beller-McKenna · From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA

Keith, I had some similar issues with helper springs on my Super Pro (same mechanism) I removed the helper on E9 string 10 (which I lower as well as raise) and everything was fine. I removed most of the helpers on C6 and will do the same on E9 when I pull that side.

Also, FWIW, the changer on this guitar (1981 specimen) can lower like crazy, contrary to what some people report about their Super-Pro era ShoBuds. Stings 6 and 2 on E9 can go way past a whole tone down.

Dan

Keith Bolog · From: Wisconsin, USA

For anyone dealing with this in the future that stumbles on this thread: With the spring gone, the lowered note is rather dead: you pluck the string and there is something missing, like a string that is tuned way below its intended pitch (yes it is he correct ga.) The note is mufflked/dead wont ring but is spot on pirtch. So I will be adding back a helper spring with less tension to see if I can balance it.
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Sustainability is unsustainable

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

I fail to see how the helper spring would impact tone. $2.00 says something else happened at the same time.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

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