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Topic: Anybody sub-mixing the drum kit? Mixer suggestions? |
George Kimery
From:
Limestone, TN, USA
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Posted 1 Dec 2013 1:47 pm |
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Who makes a small, cheap, non powered mixer for sub-mixing drums? Running separate cables to different channels of the PA board is just not practical for us. PA sits on the floor and only the singer can get to it and he doesn't have time to mess with the PA with several channels that has drums on it. One channel to just bring the drum kit up or down in the mains and/or the monitors, he could handle
The drummer has drum mic's but we are only looking at micing the bass drum, snare, and high hat.
I am thinking if the drummer had his own small 4 to 6 channel mixer, he could mix the kit and then we could run just one line to the PA, which would control the whole drum kit. The mixer would have to have a line out and the PA would have to be able to handle a line level, but I think these issues would not be a problem.
Probably set the PA EQ flat and make all EQ adjustment from the sub mixer.
From my study of recording, I was taught that you mix the drums as a kit, not one drum at a time and then expect the kit to sound good when you put everything together.
Just looking for a real small mixer with 4 to 6 channels and of course, EQ control on each channel.
Any help from somebody that has "been there, done that" would be very helpful.
Thanks,
George |
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Olli Haavisto
From:
Jarvenpaa,Finland
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Steve Collins
From:
Alaska, USA
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Posted 1 Dec 2013 4:25 pm
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| As mentioned, the Mackies do the job affordably. While a separate small mixer will work, I prefer to send the drums into their own channels and then assign them all to a single buss, so that the drums can be EQ'ed and such separately and then brought up or down on one master fader. Adding another mixer is an easy way to start messing up gain structure, and it is a challenge for a drummer to mix his/her own drums while sitting in the driver's seat. |
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Bill A. Moore
From:
Silver City, New Mexico, USA
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Posted 2 Dec 2013 8:09 am
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Back in the 80's I was playing drums with a R&R band. I used a 6 channel mono mixer that fed the main as you are wanting.
The added advantage to the drummer is the effects loop! I had a Memory Man in mine, and could really fatten up the sound! (I also used the snare mic to trigger a Clap Track, running through a separate channel to get that 80's fat snare sound). |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 2 Dec 2013 9:59 am
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| Quote: |
| While a separate small mixer will work, I prefer to send the drums into their own channels and then assign them all to a single buss, so that the drums can be EQ'ed and such separately and then brought up or down on one master fader. Adding another mixer is an easy way to start messing up gain structure, and it is a challenge for a drummer to mix his/her own drums while sitting in the driver's seat. |
Truth.
How can a performer on the stage know what adjustments need to be made to what the audience hears? What you describe, George, has all the fixings for a sonic disaster, with meaningless personal conflicts waiting in the wings to make the moment memorable. Steve's suggestion represents the most efficient way to achieve what you desire, but again, the person operating the mixer cannot possibly know what effect their actions will have on the overall sound reaching the audience.
That plus the fact that there are simply NO cheap mixers on the market that have adequate EQ for blending drum mic's into the mix. The least expensive new mixer with functional, comprehensive EQ is probably the Soundcraft GB2, and that will cost you at least $1000...
By all means mic the kick drum if you need the extra punch, but in most club-sized venues the snare and cymbals will be more than adequately reproduced through the vocal mics and require no mics.
I will add that many of the top artists in the world mic only the kick, snare and overhead, even for the largest stages. Fewer mics means less phase distortion in the final mix. |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 2 Dec 2013 10:52 am
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Peavey PV-6 mixer might be all you need. Not sure if Peavey makes them anymore. I got one on ebay and works great for small mixing jobs like drum kits.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8. |
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Peter Harris
From:
South Australia, Australia
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Posted 3 Dec 2013 1:42 am
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One of the problems about being in a band where I get to do a LOT of different things (like bass, guitar & DRUMS...ok, not all at once, but there are 6 of us shifting across about at least two or three instruments each)...is that we had to figure out how to get everything into the mix without going as far as a 40 channel desk (!)
We have used a couple of Behringer sub-mixers into a couple of channels of the main desk (old 16 channel Yamaha) to cover the drums and one particular band member who has more stuff on stage than half the rest of us combined..
For the drums, I have used a Behringer Eurorack MX802A (secondhand off FleaBay for NOT a lot of $$$) to cover (JTS NX2) Kick, (Sennheiser e604) Snare, and two Samsom CO2 overhead condenser mics...
We have always managed quite well when we have used this setup...took a bit of playing with at first, but not rocket science..
HTH
Peter
_________________
If my wife is reading this, I don't have much stuff....really! |
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George Kimery
From:
Limestone, TN, USA
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Posted 3 Dec 2013 10:31 am Anybody sub-mixing drums? Mixer suggestions
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Thanks for all the replies. A lot of things to think about now The whole problem is our drummer just doesn't play loud enough to be heard and we play small venues He just will not or can't play louder I walk out front during fiddle tunes and I am not needed and I cannot hear the drums. I record our performances, and I don't hear the drums I can't even hear them on stage and I am sitting 8 feet from him He is a very good drummer, just can't play to be heard. It has always been the other way around for the last 50 years, the drummer is usually too loud.
My plan was for me to walk out front and let the drummer play then tell him what to EQ different and what to bring up or down in his sub-mixer. Try to get a decent sound and mix, then run it all through one channel in the main mixer and maybe do some fine tuning on the mixer EQ and set the volume for the mains and monitors. Sounds like a good idea on paper, but as pointed out above, may be a disaster waiting to happen.
I moved my Zoom H-2 recorder back against the drums last gig and for the first time, I heard the drums. It sounded like a whole different and better band. Just got to get those drums coming through somehow
The PA belongs to the singer. It is a Peavey, either 8 channels or 12, not sure It is one unit, power amp and preamp built together. Rotary knobs, not sliders. I don't know how the singer is routing his mic to the mains and the monitors. I am sure that it has the normal L/R output busses. I will take a look Friday night and see if we might be able to pan the singer left and the drums right without loosing things in one side of the PA speakers or not That way, we would have a separate buss for the singer and the drums.
Another major problem is because of a pretty long driving distance, the drummer and singer ride together and the singer is usually running late, so we normally don't have much time to "play" with the drums He has to rush to get set up before the show starts, about half the time
Our drummer is a big guy and wears size 4X large shirts This past Saturday night, another band was playing with an 80 LB little girl on drums. The owner of the venue had to make her quieten down because she was too loud. Go figure
Thanks, guys
George |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 3 Dec 2013 11:12 am
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That presents a much clearer picture of your predicament, George. If you add a kick drum mic and one mic positioned about halfway between the snare and hat, you should be able to manage just fine with the existing rig, especially if you are free to step off the stage and listen to the house during the show. Remember that while the overall volume may change, the balance between drums and lead vocals in the PA will remain relatively constant as long as your drummer remains a gentle giant, so once you have worked out the settings they should not change much.
The biggest challenge in adding drums to a mix is to not bury the other elements, which is why having comprehensive EQ is so important - you want the bottom of the kick, but you don't want it to conflict with the bottom of the bass; you want the crack of the snare but you don't want to blow away the presence of the vocals. Without serious EQ on the channels you can't really do much more than select really good microphones for the job, find the right place to put them, and go make it louder.
Last edited by Dave Grafe on 3 Dec 2013 11:15 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Jon Smorada
From:
Industry, PA USA
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Posted 3 Dec 2013 11:13 am
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I picked up a Mackie ProFX8 mixer to sub-mix our drummer. We run it into the only free channel on our main board. It's a great little mixer and it's inexpensive too!
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Jon
'66 Emmons P/P D-10 4x8
Mullens Discovery 4x3 |
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Rich Hlaves
From:
Wildomar, California, USA
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Posted 5 Dec 2013 9:38 am
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George,
I mix a lot of live sound. In most cases micing the entire kit is not necessary. I most times use a well place overhead mic, a Shure SM57 and a kick mic, an AKG D112. I avoid condenser mics for live shows as they tend to pick up stage thumps and rattle unless isolated very well. I do this even with my large system when I'm out FOH on a 100 ft. snake.
Unless the venue is huge this always works out and should be easy for you to tweek on stage. If I happen to be the drummer playing in my own band and we are doing our own sound from the stage there are only two channels needed for the drums. A big plus.
My advice is to try this first before investing in another mixer. Adding a submixer to your system will cause too much knob twisting mid gig IMO.
_________________
On man....let the smoke out of another one. |
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Jerry Kippola
From:
UP Michigan, USA
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Posted 5 Dec 2013 11:48 am
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| The Allen-Heath stuff is awesome. They make small to large pro mixers. A mackie is not even close, and not easy to repair, don't waste $ on one- |
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George Kimery
From:
Limestone, TN, USA
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Posted 7 Dec 2013 2:04 pm Does anybody Sub Mix drums?
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You can close this down. We used three mic's into 3 channels of the PA last night and it worked out OK. The drummer doesn't want to spend money on a sub mixer and I agree that a sub mixer with a drummer not knowing anything about setting EQ, could be a big problem all it's own. The very best solution would be if he would JUST PLAY LOUDER.
Thanks to everybody that has helped out.
George |
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