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Topic: Why do great amps sound lousy with PSG? |
Al Carey
From:
Dublin, NH USA
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Posted 9 May 2013 3:20 am |
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My PSG amp is a Roland cube. But I have a silverface Deluxe Reverb, and a '65 Ampeg Reverberocket. Both sound fantastic with my Gretsch, but plug in either my MSA or Sierra and it sounds thin and... lousy. Either with or without a Matchbox.
I'm not unhappy with the Roland, but I play in my music room staring at these great vintage amps and periodically plug into them thinking I must be crazy, but get the same result.
Now I'm looking to trade the DR for a Twin, but why will a Twin Reverb sound better?
_________________
Sierra U-12, Gretsch 6120, Fender Tele, old tube amps, etc... |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 9 May 2013 6:12 am
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Mike Brown, Peavey, once mentioned the "voicing" of an amp and speakers when this same question was asked. Amps designed for Lead Guitar players are "voiced" (EQ) different than amps designed for steel guitar. Same way with speakers, many excellent lead guitar speakers do not do well for steel.
Pedal Steel guitars, especially doublenecks, have a very wide frequency range compared to a 6 string guitar. The frequency range (open strings) goes from the open A string (C6th neck with the C lowered) on a bass to the high G# on the E9th. This is the reason many bass amps make good Pedal Steel Guitar amps. e.g. the popular GK MB200 "bass" amp that is used by quite a few steeler's. |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 9 May 2013 8:39 am
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I would add to Jack's post that the pedal steel guitar has a much more complex harmonic content than standard electric guitars. The 'warm' front-end distortion that fattens the sound of a six-string guitar only serves to obliterate individual note identity and the introduction of contrary artifacts (when you play two notes ascending you hear an unplayed harmonic descending note or notes) when reproducing the pedal steel guitar signal.
The same thing for electric guitar speakers, that yummy 30W Celestion guitar speaker just can't deliver the clean sounds most steel pickers desire, thus the popularity of to JBL, BW, etc. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 9 May 2013 9:02 am
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| Like some great music, your great amp is better than it sounds. |
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Tim Marcus
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 9 May 2013 9:05 am
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one simple reason - your amps were not designed by a pedal steel player!
_________________
Milkmansound.com |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 9 May 2013 10:35 am
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My opinion - a properly set up Deluxe Reverb is one of the best-sounding pedal steel amps ever made, at an appropriate volume for the amp. Here's Lloyd Green on a well-known cut circa 1968 with, I believe, a blackface Deluxe Reverb - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sinMvuvIdz8
Blackface or silverface is pretty much the same thing on old Fender amps Deluxe Reverb and below, which also includes Princeton Reverb, Princeton, Vibro Champ and Champ. Differences are mainly specific choices of electronic components and speakers, and preferences are pretty much a matter of personal taste.
The speaker is important - the Oxfords and/or Utahs that often came in especially the later models are perhaps a little lightweight and thin-sounding for pedal steel at gig volume. My current '74 sports a Weber 12F150, and it is very efficient and sounds surprisingly good, to me. Perhaps my favorite speaker in a Deluxe is a coffee-can EV SRO, but the Weber is, frankly, amazing for dual PSG/guitar duties. If I'm not getting blown off the stage by the volume of the other instruments and have some FOH support for larger rooms, it's been working fine. Of course, if you're in a really loud band, you might need a serious high-power amp. Twin Reverbs are great if you need the volume, but I prefer the sound of the Deluxe Reverb for not-so-loud situations.
Of course, keeping the electronics in-trim is important. I got this Deluxe from a knowledgeable guy who did a basic filter-cap overhaul and replaced a few other out-of-tolerance resistors and caps before I got it. It's a total hoss, and I use it when I don't want to drag out my old tweed Bassman, which is simply the best amp I've ever had in my arsenal, to my tastes.
Reverborockets are cool for some things, but I've generally found the lower-power Ampegs a bit midrangey for pedal steel. But both of these amps are likely to be going strong long after most current-build, wave-soldered-components-on-thin-PC-board amps are relegated to a landfill. My opinion. |
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Al Carey
From:
Dublin, NH USA
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Posted 9 May 2013 1:07 pm
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Do most of the people using twins for steel have them modded? It seems like the voicing of all Fenders of a given era are similar, yet a TR has "it" for PSG? (for a lot of people, that is)
_________________
Sierra U-12, Gretsch 6120, Fender Tele, old tube amps, etc... |
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Dave O'Brien
From:
Florida and New Jersey
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Posted 9 May 2013 1:10 pm amps
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I've played stock Fender Twin Reverb amps and Deluxe Reverbs for 40+ years and think they sound pretty darn good with any steel I've owned.
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Dave O'Brien
Emmons D-10, CMI D-10, Fender Deluxe Reverb, PV 112, Fender Pro Reverb
www.myspace.com/daveobrienband |
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Tim Marcus
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 9 May 2013 1:22 pm
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because the Twin has so much power, it can kind of do whatever you want it to do. Its just a big clean powerful well designed and well built amplifier.
That said, there is always room for improvement - a few little tweaks and changes (some of them easily done like tubes and speakers) can make a huge difference.
_________________
Milkmansound.com |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 9 May 2013 1:43 pm
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I don't think Deluxe Reverbs need any kind of permanent modification. Twin Reverb depends on the era. I prefer the earlier ones - they made a bunch of circuit changes and there are significant differences between blackface (63-67), drip-edge silverface (68-69), later "Twin Reverb Amp" silverface (69-72), 85-watt "Twin Reverb" silverface (72-ca. 76), and ultralinear 135-watt silverface and 80s blackface (ca. 77-81 or 82). I prefer blackface and drip-edge silverface Twins, but I like them up through around 1972, although some of the later ones also sound good to me. Still, I usually return later silverface amps to earlier blackface specs, as much as possible within reason. To me, the original design sounds much more alive.
But it's no big deal changing speakers or tubes on any of these Fenders. I often use a 5751 or 12AY7 preamp tube in the first gain stage (first preamp tube for Normal channel, second preamp tube for Vibrato Channel). That sometimes helps with hot pedal steel pickups. It's easy and easily reversible to get both reverb and tremelo on both channels.
But I've never needed to change the basic voicing of these Fender amps - the basic scooped-mids voicing of a blackface-silverface Fender amp works just fine for pedal steel, again to my tastes. With the EQ set flat, the Peavey steel amps sound more like a flat EQ response to me. I think this is why they give you additional midrange filtering, which I think a lot of players use to scoop the midrange to taste. What I usually wind up doing with them is not very far away from a typical Fender scooped-mids sound. |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 9 May 2013 1:44 pm
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My tech changed the slope resistor on my Quad, revamped into a Twin with a JBL 15. Sounds great! He changed some caps too,,, not values, but brand/type. Rick Johnson cabs, obviously.
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Al Carey
From:
Dublin, NH USA
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Posted 9 May 2013 4:18 pm
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Sweet looking rig, John!
_________________
Sierra U-12, Gretsch 6120, Fender Tele, old tube amps, etc... |
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Jerome Hawkes
From:
Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 9 May 2013 4:45 pm
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I've got a stash of vintage amps accumulated over the years, and In general, find it hard to best a peavy voiced for steel - but you have to run some kind of effect or they sound too sterile. Not saying they are the greatest, but peavey eq system does what it's suppose to for steel - I can usually get a good balanced sound where everything is even.
of course, the converse of that is they sound hideous for std guitar.
My amateur theory is it has to do with the tight tuning on an E9 - essentially a whole diatonic scale tuning with tight intervals where a std gtr is tuned in 4ths over 2 octaves. That means you need a little more eq assistance or strings will overpower or dropout when doing inner voice movement typical of pedal playing.
_________________
'65 Sho-Bud D-10 Permanent • '54 Fender Dual-8 • Clinesmith T-8 • '38 Ric Bakelite • '92 Emmons D-10 Legrande II |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 9 May 2013 4:59 pm
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JH,
I was sooooo glad to get rid of my sterile-sounding Vegas, and get back to warm tubes. I give Peavey credit, but I don't like the way they sound. |
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Mike Poholsky
From:
Kansas, USA
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Posted 9 May 2013 7:14 pm
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Al before you give up on the Deluxe, a few things you may try:
Experiment with different preamp tubes. There can be substantial differences in tone. I've been experimenting lately in my Twin, so far I like the RCA 12AX7.
Get somewhere that you can get the amp cranked up, Vol at 5+. Open up the tone controls and work backwards to find your tone. Fender tube amps sound better when the controls are opened up. Experiment with the bright switch on and off.
Try a good speaker voiced for steel. Plenty of suggestions here on the board.
Do a search of everything Fender amp related on this board, there is so much info here it is mind boggling.
I am no amp expert by any stretch, but I've learned a ton on this forum. I've never owned a Deluxe, but I know they are sought after by 6 stringers and PSG. The Deluxe IS lighter than a Twin. 
Good luck, you're in the right place.
_________________
Zumsteel 12 Universal
SGBB
ShoBud VP
'64 Fender Twin Reverb/Fox Rehab
Fender Steel King w/BW 1501-4
FX to Taste |
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Al Carey
From:
Dublin, NH USA
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Posted 10 May 2013 3:13 am
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Thanks for the input, everyone.
Mike: It occurred to me that maybe it would start to sound better cranked up a bit, I've only tried it in my music room at very low levels. I'll also see what other preamp tubes I have around to try.
_________________
Sierra U-12, Gretsch 6120, Fender Tele, old tube amps, etc... |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 10 May 2013 4:56 am
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| Quote: |
| Why do great amps sound lousy with PSG? |
Sometimes, it's because it's not a great amp. Amps that work well for guitar don't always work for steel, and that's because the demands are vastly different, as a rule. Of course, other times, an amp doesn't sound good because the player simply doesn't know how to set the amp. Playing with the mids way up or with the volume way down will usually sound crappy regardless of which amp you use.
Turn the amp up, and learn to use the volume pedal to regulate your volume. Keeping the amp volume low so you don't play loud is like putting a brick under your cars accelerator pedal so you won't drive too fast.  It sounds good, in theory, but it really doesn't wind up being very practical. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 10 May 2013 6:38 am
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| Back in 1967 I ordered and took delivery of an early silverface Twin Reverb with JBL speakers. Of all the amps and setups I've tried over the years, it still is the one that sets the standards. |
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Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
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Posted 10 May 2013 6:54 am
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Tube amps for steel (Clean head room) like fresh tubes after a couple years of 3 nights a week.
Try new power tubes before you sell.
_________________
MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 10 May 2013 7:11 am
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I played through a 71 Fender Twin Reverb AB768 chassis (bought at Chuck Levin's Washington Music) first with the two 12" JBL D120-F's that came with the amp, then later with one JBL K-130 speaker which was an improvement for steel. Being an amp tech it was in tip top shape. I got a Peavey Session 500 when they first came out (got the first one in Kansas City) and it was no contest, the Session 500's sound for my 71 PP Emmons D-10 was far superior.
On the other hand, if I wanted an amp for lead guitar my first choice would be a Fender tube amp such as the Twin Reverb. |
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Jimmy Gibson
From:
Cornwall, England
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Posted 10 May 2013 8:19 am Good all rounder
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I use a Yamaha G100 112 combo and it is one of the best amp I have ever had for steel and guitar, I sold my Roland Cube 80XL great amp but this Yamaha takes a lot o beating loud as you will ever need with no break up at very high volume and really good eq .
Has anyone on the forum ever used one of these IMHO a great all round amps?
Jimmy G |
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Al Carey
From:
Dublin, NH USA
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Posted 10 May 2013 1:11 pm
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I'll play around with both amps some more. I'm thinking about trading the deluxe for a twin, not just because I can't get a good tone out of it with PSG, but because I actually like my Ampeg better for 6 string, and I need more power for PSG than the dr can provide. I'd consider trading/selling the Ampeg, but for what I'd get for it I'd rather keep it.
Old ampegs are a steal among vintage tube amps as far as I'm concerned, and I've got a keeper.
_________________
Sierra U-12, Gretsch 6120, Fender Tele, old tube amps, etc... |
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Chris Boyd
From:
Leonia,N.J./Charlestown,R.I.
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Posted 10 May 2013 1:35 pm
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Al... I still have 4- 60's Ampegs that are terrific for guitars.. A '66 RRII has an EV SRO coffee can alnico 12 that is outrageous in that amp!Someone mentioned loving their Ampeg B12XT for steel... I have one and need to try it..
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https://www.reverbnation.com/bigredandtheresonators |
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Al Carey
From:
Dublin, NH USA
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Posted 10 May 2013 2:04 pm
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Let me know how it works for you. I have a '65 RRII with a 15" Jensen, which I love... for 6 string
_________________
Sierra U-12, Gretsch 6120, Fender Tele, old tube amps, etc... |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 10 May 2013 2:17 pm
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| Jerome Hawkes wrote: |
| they sound hideous for std guitar. |
i take offense at that, having played hundreds of gigs with great guitarists using one with little or no outboard effects even.
i know it may be a problem if your guitar playing is limited to the mask of an overdriven tone. |
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