| Author |
Topic: ugh palm blocking !! |
Karen Sarkisian
From:
Boston, MA, USA
|
Posted 22 Mar 2013 1:43 pm |
|
For players who primarily palm block while speed picking, do you use the Jeff Newman approach of just Thumb and 2nd finger, or do you use T, 1 and 2 ?
also what have the traditional palm blockers used ? Ralph Mooney, Buddy Emmons, etc. Thanks !
_________________
Emmons, Franklin, Mullen |
|
|
 |
Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
|
Posted 22 Mar 2013 2:14 pm
|
|
| T & 2 is probably the most common method. Works for me. |
|
|
|
Karen Sarkisian
From:
Boston, MA, USA
|
Posted 22 Mar 2013 2:17 pm
|
|
yeah I am starting to see the benefits of T,2 especially after watching the right hand alpha again.
_________________
Emmons, Franklin, Mullen |
|
|
|
Michael Hummel
From:
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
|
Posted 22 Mar 2013 7:34 pm
|
|
I don't know if this is helpful to anyone, but here goes...
I have been a 6-string player for 45 years. Some months ago I decided to take up pedal steel. For some reason, pick blocking came naturally, which didn't make any sense to me. I kept on trying palm blocking, but found it difficult.
One day I picked up a flat pick and started playing my steel, and I found I could do things very naturally just as I would play a 6-string guitar and the palm blocks just started to happen. I put the finger picks back on and my brain had a much easier time with it.
I find I do have to make a conscious effort to tell my brain "now we are going to do palm blocking", but it doesn't matter which picking fingers I use, the palm technique is starting to work. It really helps me to imagine the hand is working somewhat like the flatpicking motion.
Mind you, at band practice tonight, I fell back into my old habits and mostly pick blocked. The pedal steel is a hard mistress!
Mike
_________________
MSA Classic 5+4
Too many 6-strings and amps to list |
|
|
|
Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
|
Posted 23 Mar 2013 6:43 am
|
|
I have a number of Jeffran courses including No speed limit and I find it very difficult to palm block.
Probably doesn't help that I use an extra pick and hold my hand flat..
Seems like I hit harmonics instead of blocking.
The guitar pick idea sounds like a good thing to try and break the pattern of pick blocking and be able to do both.
_________________
MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes |
|
|
|
Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
|
Posted 23 Mar 2013 10:46 am
|
|
Personally, I do my "high speed" palm blocking stuff with thumb and index.
I guess thats improper teqhnique, but it was always easier for me.. I think you will find Karen, as you listen to some fast blocked runs on recordings, that there is a lot of stuff that was done using 3 fingers as well. Depends on the lick, where its played, pedal and knees used etc. I personally would find what is easiest for you, and improve on what works best.. Its all good.... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
|
|
|
John Scanlon
From:
Jackson, Mississippi, USA
|
|
|
|
Brian Herder
From:
Philadelphia, Pa. USA
|
Posted 23 Mar 2013 2:37 pm
|
|
Tom Brumley seemed to do ok using his thumb and index finger. This video montage has a good segment of his right hand. This solo and outro may be my favorite stuff he ever played.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0kyXoxT87M
Also, check out Jay Dee Maness in this one.. a good shot of his flat right hand.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90hD9g93rC0
I guess nobody ever told them they were doing it wrong!  |
|
|
|
Daniel Policarpo
|
Posted 24 Mar 2013 4:47 am
|
|
Recently I was working on a fast palm blocking exercise out of Winston/Keith's book and I found myself able to go at lightning speed. Kind of freaky, as over the last few months I'd be going back to it now and then trying to get it cleaner, and up to speed. Then all of a sudden, BAM!. I was able to fly; clean and at great speed. Who's fingers were those?! 
I don't even want to be fast, just trying to be clean and hopefully approach a feeling with some soul, like John Hughey or Sonny Curtis.
I was using thumb, index, and middle fingers and it seems that I was using a combo of palm and pick blocking. I try not to think on it too much, it trips me up. That is the strange thing that I am learning with the steel. We work on technique, and approach playing from many angles, but even though we don't master a certain thing, the composite effects of our efforts sometimes gel into a natural style.The results come out in the damnedest ways. And just because I can do it today, does not mean I can do it tomorrow. |
|
|
|
Dick Sexton
From:
Greenville, Ohio
|
|
|
|
James Taylor
From:
United Kingdom
|
Posted 24 Mar 2013 6:31 am Blocking
|
|
I know what you mean Daniel! I get similar strange and very sinister turns with blocking. Perfect today and all to pot the next day. Strangely, one day I was sort of lost in it and I thought, what the heck is going on here as it did not appear to be my hands as there was no stumbling and an improvement for me. Perhaps one has to find their own way . JAMES TAYLOR  |
|
|
|
John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
|
Posted 24 Mar 2013 11:55 am
|
|
I have a mantra for all my students. You gotta have:
• patience
• practice
• persistence
• available time
• faith that with all the above, you WILL get better, maybe even great!
If you just accept the fact that, as a beginning steel player, you will suck for an indefinite period before, by some miracle, you suddenly get it, the journey will be a lot more enjoyable.
I really feel that getting down the finer points of any technique, especially palm and pick blocking, takes a lot of time and effort. Be patient, don't give up.
I followed the Buddy and Jeff path and played, and generally still play, with T-M fingers for most single note stuff.
But as the licks by the top players of today got more and more difficult and technical and harder to emulate, it's become clear that throwing away one's index finger is foolhardy, so I now work on using all 3 fingers most of the time. And I advise my students to keep all fingers in the playing mix.
When you're palm blocking, a key thing is getting the right shape to your hand so that your palm is sitting on the strings all the time until you play a note.
The next most important thing is lightly lifting your hand just enough to allow strings to ring out. You're essentially "tapping out" each and every note and/or chord. And you must keep your fingers near or even in the strings, almost a hybrid of pick and palm blocking. This is where your speed and accuracy will come from.
Newman's "Right Hand Alpha" is still the bible for palm blocking as far as I'm concerned, but I teach private students the slight variants I use that work better for me.
If you're interested in some private coaching on palm blocking, go to my website and contact me, or send me an email through the forum (not a PM), I'm happy to help you make some quick progress via Skype lessons. I've helped dozens of students clean up their picking technique.
http://steelguitarlessons.com
_________________
E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net |
|
|
|
Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
|
|
|
|
David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
|
Posted 24 Mar 2013 6:00 pm
|
|
| Quote: |
I have a mantra for all my students. You gotta have:
• patience
• practice
• persistence
• available time
• faith that with all the above, you WILL get better, maybe even great! |
John McClung
To that I can only add another quote from one of my "teachers", John McLaughlin (who knows a thing or two about technique):
| Quote: |
| Speed and fluency are a combination of two things. First and foremost, in your imagination, you must hear yourself playing in this way, or it won't happen for you on the fretboard. Secondly, be willing to attack the problem of inarticulation through work and application of exercises. |
You have to work on hearing fast - whatever the top speed at which you can comprehend music, that's the cap you've put on your own ability to play. (Same holds true with harmony - zoink!)
Oh yeah = T-M.  Unless, and except, I need an extra beat to cheat. There are an awful lot of melodies which reverse rhythmic direction, part of what makes them interesting. The "right way" to play is to be able to play both
T-M-T-M-T-M-T and
M-T-M-T-M-T-M.
But the easy way to do it is to add one extra stroke to "re-reverse" it back to your normal (in my case an index). In "Straight No Chaser" I count a 5, then an 11... other people count it differently, AKA "whatever gets you through." |
|
|
|
John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
|
Posted 24 Mar 2013 6:08 pm
|
|
Good info, David!
Can you clarify the "re-reverse" concept, though? You mention index, just not sure what you're describing there. Thanks.
_________________
E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net |
|
|
|
Terry Sneed
From:
Arkansas,
|
Posted 25 Mar 2013 5:00 pm palm blockin
|
|
Never have been any good at palm blockin. I got use to ring finger doubled under, and that's the way I've always blocked, with ring finger. I really beleive that palm blockin is the best way to block though. Pick blockin sounds so much smoother to me, but both have their place.
terry |
|
|
|
Don R Brown
From:
Rochester, New York, USA
|
Posted 25 Mar 2013 5:01 pm
|
|
It can be a challenge to a beginner to know which things are "wrong" and which are "what works for you". I have the Newman lesson, and he emphasizes thumb and middle. I have two local guys who have been helping me and both of them say I should be striving for thumb & index. (I'm talking about "primarily", not saying NEVER use the third choice).
I've tried both ways and I seem to feel more comfortable with thumb and middle but I'm not sure whether to focus on that, or keep trying to learn thumb and index.
Daniel Policarpo said above "And just because I can do it today, does not mean I can do it tomorrow." Amen to that - sometimes I get something right on the money and think I'm making progress. The next day my palm feels like a loaf of bread and my picks want to block every string on the darn thing, BEFORE I play the note! |
|
|
|
Kenneth Kotsay
From:
Davie/Ft Lauderdale, Florida
|
Posted 26 Mar 2013 3:28 pm
|
|
Karen, check out DAVID HARTLEY'S Youtube video, "NEVER BE ANYONE ELSE BUT YOU." This video shows David's right hand view and also his left hand view. In fact, some of his videos give good examples of both hands & sometimes his left feet, and then there's his outstanding playing.
Hope it will help.
KEN |
|
|
|
Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
|
Posted 26 Mar 2013 3:55 pm
|
|
Thumb and middle for me almost exclusively, but I do involve the index finger on some patterns - especially on the lower strings.
Since twisting the picks on my fingers to 45 degrees (roughly) T & M has been far, far more effective and fruitful ....
I'm still amazed that I was able to effect such a radical change in my 'technique' so late in my playing career (ie, after about forty years on steel!) Everything is vastly improved - tone and execution.
(I have discovered that, without me ever having tried, there's an occasional element of pick-blocking, too...)
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
---------------------------------- |
|
|
|
David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
|
Posted 27 Mar 2013 11:12 am
|
|
| Quote: |
| Can you clarify the "re-reverse" concept, though? You mention index, just not sure what you're describing there. Thanks. |
FIRST - if you can pull up a fake book lead sheet on "Straight No Chaser", I'll get as exact as I can. What I'm talking about is adding in a stroke for the "How the HECK am I supposed to..." moments. It pertains to playing a written or recorded piece of music exactly, where adding a note (or a few) helps you survive. What Mr. Rettig speaks of just above is true too - sometimes a note is just way-> over-> there-> ... but the music doesn't give a damn.
On "Straight..." measure 6 is all holding the Ab, in fact I count a five and then pick back up with the C in measure 7. Five ascending notes, then five ascending notes again - in each case I start with a thumb, just play T-M-T-M-T twice. But then the bugaboo - next up is six ascending notes, three at the end of m. 8 and three running into the start of m. 9 ending on the Bb and RIGHT AWAY you pick back up on the low C for an ascending run of eleven notes. Now just in playing through this, I find I can do it a couple of ways, but regardless, if you can stick ONE index in there at the start of m. 9 your thumb can be down where it needs to be more smoothly - I'm playing it T-I-M now, which is maybe more "right." I used to play it T-M-I - which worked, and there's another point when you top out on the Bb towards the end on m. 10 where having an extra digit helps too.
Like I just said, I find now I can play through it in a few different ways, but still - the version that's stuck in my head as the "right" one is the "Milestones" one where Srs. Adderly and Coltrane were hitting those notes with a loony, savage kind of POP to them, and anything that lets you hit it harder, I'll take it. In fact they're adding in a upper third harmony note on the high ones, that takes another few minutes....
Technically I suppose this stuff may be "wrong" but right around the time I was figuring out how to play "Straight No Chaser" on standard-tuned guitar - with a slide - I became aware that Steve Morse was doing something similar (1980, late-Dregs period). He held a flatpick with thumb, index and middle and he was known for curling the pick up with his index finger and fingerpicking with thumb, middle and ring, but he'd slip the pick to just his index & thumb and sneak the middle in. Of course that's standard guitar, but it's the exact same idea. When I was pulled out "Straight" I also pulled the sheets for "Day Tripper" and "Well You Needn't" because I remember doing something similar, but I'll have to figure it out in a bit. For that matter, look up that Mike Neer fellow over in No Pedals, because he just worked up Lynyrd Skynyrd's "I Know a Little", and I'm pretty sure you'd need all you can grab to do that.
And though in 1980 he was totally off my R'n'R radar, Danny Gatton was another guitarist barking up the same tree. You might want to watch just the tail end of Tips and Tricks 3 to get the context, but in section 4 he's talking about this exact same idea.
3 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2SQzjFOx7E
4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YboFo8tsBLE
He's using the pick strokes to count out the music. If the pluck is there, the note is there. Somewhere - the biscuit and gravy are on the same plate, at least, you still have to sop it around for a while. This works for trying to figure out classical stuff too, although there's a lot of "horizontal slicing" too. Ideally, of course, the music should tell you where all the strokes are instead of vice-versa - and when Paul Franklin bottles his right hand and sells it, all it'll take is money, right? |
|
|
|
John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
|
Posted 27 Mar 2013 11:23 am
|
|
Wonderful explanation, David, thanks!
_________________
E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net |
|
|
|
