Tuning Down to Eb – 4th string won’t stay in tune "Help

Marc Friedland · From: Fort Collins, CO

In a previous post I asked about tuning down my Carter S10 E9 to Eb.
Well – it works 90%, but that’s not good enough.
The 4th string goes sharp after a short time of playing. – All the other strings appear to adjust fine to the lower tuning without a problem.
I’m using the same gauge strings as for my regular E9 which means I’m using a 014.
I experimented with using a 015, but the results were the same.
I then tuned the 4th string back to E to make sure something didn’t coincidentally go wrong with the guitar at the same exact time I tried tuning down.
It stayed in tune perfectly – never going sharp, even if after a longer time of hard playing & extensive pedal pushing.
From this I conclude it’s only a problem when wanting to keep the string tuned to Eb.
Any & all ideas are greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Marc

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

You may have to reduce tension slightly on the lower-return spring for that string, as when string-tension gets reduced by tuning down half an note that spring with existing tension may cause reversal and tendency to raise.

Zeke Cory · From: Hinsdale, New York USA

As George said - but ... if the spring is not adjustable, you may have to remove the lower most spring (with the guitar upside down) to get it to stablize the fourth. I have a Shobud Super Pro tuned down to D9 (also with an E9 guage set of strings on it) and had to just remove it as it was not adjustable. All was fine then and works perfectly. After you tune down, you will find the pedal action requires considerably less effort or foot pressure so you will have to redevelop a very "light" touch with your feet and also with your hands as well. The sound is a bit "darker or stringier", and you will hardly ever break a string. I tried it 40 years ago and have played it like that since. With any steel I have played, I have to play around with it for a bit to get the changes to move and return accurately, due to temperature change or whatever other gremlins there be. Also - The fourth string lowers were always finicky little buggers on all of my Shobuds, irregardless of either a D9 or E9 tuning. I cannot speak from experience on Carter's, however! Best of luck. Zeke

richard burton · From: Britain

Zeke,
You're talking about removing the helper spring, which would do the trick on a Shobud, but, unless it's been modified, Marc's Carter does not have any helper springs.

Georg could be on the right track, but I can't see a mere semitone drop being affected by lower return spring tension, especially as a bigger gauge string has been tried, with the same outcome.

I think that it might be a sticking roller nut.

Lift the 4th string and see if the roller nut rotates freely

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

As Richard says, it could be a problem with the roller nut. (Make sure the string is pulling straight off the nut!) If that's not the case, it's overtuned...probably at the C pedal.

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

I too was about to post about overtuning---did you need to retune your pedals/levers? I would expect the lowered-tension to require longer pulls, necessitating adjustments. So I would look to see if the changer is tuner-bound.

edit edit edit!!!!

This is incorrect! It is exactly the opposite of what it should be. You would need to back off of the nylon tuners to compensate for the lower tension string. Please dock me 3 days' pay.

Zeke Cory · From: Hinsdale, New York USA

Jon - in response to your statement - "I would expect the lowered-tension to require longer pulls", On my Shobud - it seems as though when I lowered my E9 strings down to D9th, I actually had to BACK OFF the pedal pulls to a shorter pull - minimal pedal movement to achieve the same pitch change. However, I did this ions ago so I may have to tune it back up to E9th and then back down to D9th to see if my old age is effecting my memory !!! Sometime age can be unkind. I will do this and then repost my findings again. I now know none of this may apply to a Carter steel guitar, as I was unaware of the different mechanics. Thanks for enlightening me here. Both the overtuning and the roller nut thing make perfect sense, but if it was the roller nut sticking, would it not do that regardless of string tension? I learn more everyday on here. Thanks Guys. Zeke

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Zeke---do not question your mind. I am 100% wrong. I get all dyslexic about stuff like this and I confuse altering string gauges and changing from wound to unwound with this particular issue. I just tuned my 4 down to D and without changing anything in the pedals/levers they pull way too far and would need to be backed off---exactly as you said!
My apologies for putting out bad info!

So, Marc---have you made the necessary nylon tuner adjustments? As I re-read your post, I'm not too confident that this is the issue since you start out ok and then the guitar starts losing it.

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Friction sounds to be the real problem, but as reduction in string tension is much higher for the first half note down from standard than if tuning were lowered further, with open 4th string at Eb there may already be too little string tension left to overcome friction (in the changer) between lower-scissor and finger with an already a bit over-tensioned return spring (that works fine with higher string tension). If that's the case, the tendency for the string to return to too high a pitch in open after having been raised and lowered a few times, will be as Marc described.
Balancing the lower return spring to the now lower string tension, will then solve the problem. Been there -- but not with a Carter.

Marc Friedland · From: Fort Collins, CO

Hey – thanks for all the quick replies guys!

Yes – I do adjust all the nylon tuners after lowering the strings.
The roller appears to move fine – I even used some TriFlow on it.
With my total lack of mechanical abilities I don’t think I would try to adjust the spring tension by myself, but Dick Meis lives about an hour away and he would help me with that if you think that’s the only logical alternative left.
(Life was certainly easier in these regards when I lived in N. CA and was less than a half hour away from Tom Bradshaw, and I prefer to not have to mail him the guitar now.)

After more experimenting –
Less than 30 seconds of using the C pedal the string returns and remains Sharp, though sometimes it does lower itself to close to correct tuning for a while after more playing, but totally unpredictable.
AND
After using the E to Eb knee lever for about the same amount of time the string returns & remains Flat. I hadn’t tested that before.

I do have another option available!!!! (Though it has nothing to do with making this guitar work with the lower tuning)

My other Carter “appears” to accept the lower tuning without any problems.
I tested it for about 5 minutes with the 4th & 5th strings turned down and they remained in perfect tune even after continuous use of the C pedal & Eb lever.
I would still need to test it with all strings tuned down and using all the pedal & levers.

My other Carter is about 5 years newer – 2002 as compared to 1997, it has an additional 4th floor pedal - other than that it’s basically the same guitar.
I always considered this my stay-at-home guitar because it has so many fewer road miles on it and I’d like to keep it that way if I could, but there’s certainly no law saying I can’t change the roles of my 2 guitars, because I don’t need to have my home guitar tuned down – as a matter of fact I’d prefer it to be in standard tuning.
The only reason I’m going through all this is my new band I’ve joined as a utility player Pedal Steel / Keyboards & 6-string Electric / prefers to be tuned down a half step to accommodate the singer(s). I’ve already determined that my keyboards can be transposed and now the only obstacle in the way is the pesky 4th string of the psg.
I have a lot of fun with these guys and they’re offering me about 75 steady gigs a year at decent pay so I want to make an effort to go along with the program.

Thanks again everyone,
Marc

Marc Friedland · From: Fort Collins, CO

Another thought –

I have a friend nearby who I’ve given a couple of steel lessons to – and he’s very comfortable and confident with tools in his hands fixing all sorts of mechanical things.
If someone could explain to him how to experiment with the spring tension under my guitar I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t mind doing that in exchange for a lesson or 2.
That sounds like a barter exchange where everyone will benefit.
And perhaps that’s the next step – what do you think?

-- Marc

BTW
I could ask Chuck Lettes for assistance, but he’s more than an hour away so I’d like to leave that option on the back burner.

Zeke Cory · From: Hinsdale, New York USA

when you change from one tuning to another, it can seem to confuse. I seem to always start default position at fret 2, which is unpedaled E on my guitar. (tuned to open D9th). When I sit at my friends guitar tuned to standard E9th, I have to remember to think to change the key in my head. A singer will call say E for example, if I go instinctively to fret 2 as I am used to, i screwed up. Im just takin the long way of sayin changing tunings require a change in thinking. Play the one out you are most natural or instinctive with. Even when I am moving from my D neck to C6th, which I am still figuring out, I have to think ahead of myself, key position wise. Some can change guitars, tunings, and even pedal setups and play great. For me, an instinctive intimate familiarity is my best chance for survival on stage, especially on the really fast stuff when you dont have time to think about what you are doing. lol! Please let us know which way you go and the results. Its very heplful to many of us. Best of Luck and thanks.

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Marc, try lubricating the changer - lightly, with light machine oil, and play some to work it in. May be enough to at least pinpoint where the problem is.

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Hi Marc. On the Carter, you have to cut coils off the spring and re-bend the last coil to fit on the finger since the springs are not adjustable (big oversight on Carter's part in my opinion). This only works to increase the tension. If you need to relieve the tension, you need to experiment with new springs.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

Marc Friedland · From: Fort Collins, CO

Hi Richard –

I’ve tinkered around more this afternoon.
I am relatively convinced it is not the string(s), and not the roller or changer.

OK – now given everyone’s advice so far and in light of Richard Sinkler’s first-hand knowledge with Carters – here’s what I think I’ll do:

Either –
Play my stay-at-home Carter on gigs because for whatever reason that seems to be OK in Eb and without the tuning issues. And have my gig-guitar become my stay-at-home guitar. (This option is probably the easiest)

Or –
Continue to play my gig-guitar, but have it at normal E9 tuning where there are no tuning issues. This will mean I have to play a half step lower of what it “appears” the band is playing – in other words play in F# when the band is playing in G, which is not that difficult, BUT
This will get tricky when going in-between steel & keys during the same song because –
If I keep the keyboards at standard pitch to match the steel it will mean I have to play all my rock, country, blues, & honky-tonk riffs in the flatted keys. Obviously, that’s an option, but I’m much more comfortable playing AHBA in G as compared to F# or Boot Scoot Boogie in E instead of Eb – I’ve been playing them in the original keys for so many years now – you get the idea.
And if I keep the pedal steel at E9 and transpose the keyboards down to match the band and be in keys that are in my comfort zone – I’m going to really have to concentrate all night to not get mixed up.
For example:
Let’s say we’re doing Josh Turner’s Your Man – the band is playing it in G – which means I’d have to play it in F# on the steel & G on the piano. And I go back & forth a couple of times during the song – when I return back to the steel after the keyboards I better not forget it’s in F# on the steel, not G, or this band might start having 2nd thoughts about having me as their utility player.

Well – there you go, thanks for listening everybody.

And many thanks to everyone who contributed to helping me figure this all out.

-- Marc

Marc Friedland · From: Fort Collins, CO

OK – I’m sure you’re all getting tired of this – I know I am.
I made a decision –
I’m going to continue playing my gig-guitar at gigs and keep it tuned to standard E9.
I will transpose the keyboards to match the band and make it easier for me to play in the non-flatted keys.
There are only about a half dozen songs that demand I play both steel & keys in the same song, so I think I will be able to easily adapt to that and remember to play in Eb on the steel while playing in E on the keyboards.
I’m actually looking forward to finally get a chance to play some pull-off – open licks at the 2nd fret in F#, Eb & B that I don’t usually get an opportunity to use.

Thanks again –
Marc

Larry Behm · From: Mt Angel, Or 97362

If the singer can not sing one fret (note) higher or lower replace them, the guitar is fine. Good grief get a pro singer with some pipes to match your pro guitar.

Also tune up to standard and do not tell the singer when they say it is to high, just lie to them. They will not know and then start to push a little harder with their voice and soon they will be there.

Just saying.

Larry Behm
_________________
'70 D10 Black fatback Emmons PP, Hilton VP, BJS bars, Boss GE-7 for Dobro effect, Zoom MS50G, Stereo Steel amp, Telonics 15” speaker.

Phone: 971-219-8533

Bill Moore · From: Manchester, Michigan

I think it all starts with guitars players. Some want to use heavier strings and still be able to bend them a little, some want to do it because Hendrix and Stevie Ray did it. It's pretty lame, in my opinion. Like when you ask a guitar player what key a song is in and he says "dropped D" Sorry, it's just D. If you want to tune down as a convenience, so that you can have a simple fingering, do it, no need to expect the rest of the band to do so. And, like Larry said above, if a singer can't sing a song in E, then do it in D. What does it matter to him?

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

I can't think of any good reason why your Carter shouldn't accommodate a half step de-tuning. Before you abandon the idea, try using a .015 ga. string for the 4th if you're not already.

If and when you pull the string off, try some light oil on the changer/finger axle and work it back and forth manually 'til it moves freely.

Yes, it's quite possible that the lower return spring needs more tension, but I'm thinking it should easily work within the same parameters of the E note.

Pete Conklin · From: Austin, TX

Marc,
If you want me to look at it, I'd be glad to. If it just a matter of loosening the tension spring, we can try that and if it doesn't work, we can put it back the way it was.

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

You really can't loosen the tension on a Carter lower return spring without changing it out for one with less tension. The spring is not adjustable as they are on many other guitars. You can cut coils off the spring and increase the tension, but you can't really do anything to lessen the tension.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

Pete Conklin · From: Austin, TX

Thank you Richard. I didn't know that about a Carter.

Well Marc, looks like you are back to square one. Glad I could help. Laughing

I would like to look at it anyway, maybe I can figure out what's going on.

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Richard,
Couldn't one stretch the spring to lower tension? Of course if you stretched it too much, you'd need to get a new spring..........

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

A short piece of wire - make a ring as "spring-extension" - should not be difficult to put in for testing, and it is then totally reversible since the spring keeps its original length/tension.

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

I don't think stretching the spring would work. If you stretched it out even a little, it would probably fall off the finger. In the relaxed position, the springs are not stretched much, if at all. Stretching them out would make the "hook" too far out, and probably not able to stay put on the finger.

_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

Forum Index > Pedal Steel	Goto page 1, 2 Next	Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic