| Author |
Topic: Why did pedal steel pickups get so hot? |
Joel Paterson
From:
Chicago, Illinois, USA
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Posted 26 Dec 2008 8:20 pm |
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I'm wondering why pedal steel pickups got so hot - up in the 18-20k range? Was it the increasing volume of country bands in the 70's?
I wish I could leave the Twin Reverb home and play pedal steel through my guitar rig without it being totally distorted. I can never get a good guitar sound and steel sound on the same gig without bringing out two amps. My lap steels sound so good through a deluxe or a vibrolux, but the Emmons sounds like mush.
Who's got a cheap Bigsby?  |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 26 Dec 2008 8:45 pm
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There were several threads on this a couple of years ago. These more highly wound pickups sound good through amps made for pedal steel, to my tastes. I particularly like Bill Lawrence pickups, which have a high DC resistance, but are really medium impedance pickups and I don't think they lose their clarity as much as a traditional design.
One way to cope with highly wound and high-output pickups with a smaller Fender is to change the front preamp tube on one of the channels to a lower-gain tube like 5751, 12AY7, or even as low as 12AV7 or 12AU7. My Deluxe, Vibrolux, and Dual Showman Reverbs have reverb on both channels - I can use one channel for guitar with a 12AX7 and the other for steel with a 5751. This is great if that type of amp has enough juice for you.
Or - you could do like Bob Carlucci and some others have done, and have someone like Jerry Wallace wind you a pickup with a couple of coil taps to give low, medium, and high resistance windings. Or perhaps get (or modify) a humbucker with 4-conductor wiring and wire the humbucking coils in parallel, which cuts the output also.
I think the reason most pedal steel players don't do this kind of thing is that they really do like the sound of these newer pickups through their choice of amps - pedal steel amps. As a long-time guitar player, I was also mystified by this at first. But having messed around with this approach for the last few years, I think I get it now. It really is nice having a lot of headroom on this instrument - my old Deluxe and Vibrolux Reverbs sound great at low volumes, but I get buried on a normal gig if I want to keep it clean.
My take. |
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Joel Paterson
From:
Chicago, Illinois, USA
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Posted 26 Dec 2008 9:46 pm
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Hey Dave, I'll talk to my amp guy. But I don't think I'm ready to modify my amps like that, I know he won't like it. That's cool you have reverb in both channels, that's another dilemma for me when I plug my guitar and stand-up steel into the same amp. I might think about that solution down the road.
I play both steel and guitar in my trio - and we like to keep it at a reasonable volume. I don't have to compete with any screaming telecasters or a loud drummer, thankfully. Playing guitar through my Twin is too loud for the rooms we play, and I like it to break up a little bit. |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 26 Dec 2008 11:17 pm
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I think the tube swap is a great idea. Pretty simple and obviously reversible.
Use the reverb channel with a low gain 12a_7 tube for steel and the dry 12ax7 channel w/ a delay pedal for guitar. |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 27 Dec 2008 12:17 am
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A simple way to deal with old Fender amps is to plug into the second input jack of whatever channel you use. The are bumped down a bit so you don't hit the input pre's as hard.
_________________
Bob |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 27 Dec 2008 3:09 am
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You can definitely use Input 2 to lower the gain. The reason I prefer the lower-gain input preamp tube is that I can maintain the higher (1 Meg Ohm) input impedance of Input 1. The input impedance of Input 2 is about 2*68K, or 136K (my Deluxe measures about 140K). I find that pretty low, especially with a hotly wound PSG pickup.
On the reverb in both channels thing - it can be done as a very simple and basically reversible mod, unless your amp is one of the rare ones that has never had to have any solder joints touched in 40 years or so. I've never seen a working and good-sounding old Fender that didn't have to have a few things done here or there, so temporarily moving a wire doesn't bother me anyway. Here's one approach: http://music-electronics-forum.com/showthread.php?t=3199
Of course, you could simply use the non-reverb/vibrato channel for steel or guitar and either 1) Don't use reverb, or 2) Use a reverb pedal like the Holy Grail to get reverb. |
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Joel Paterson
From:
Chicago, Illinois, USA
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Posted 28 Dec 2008 12:00 am
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| I tried plugging into input 2 on my Fender amps - it is quieter - but the pedal steel pickups still hit too hard and distort. I guess I'm just bemoaning the loss of some of the sweet tone of the 1950's for modern performance. If I could have a steel that performed like my Emmons and sounded like my 50's Fender steel, I would be happy. |
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Mark Durante
From:
St. Pete Beach FL
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Posted 28 Dec 2008 6:00 am
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Hey Joel,
I know what you mean, the Bigsby/Fender/Rickenbacker sound of the fifties was the greatest. Pedal steels often sound kind of thin in comparison. Maybe the train of thought was if they beefed up the pickups it would sound fuller. But it seems then you have to get a real clean amp so it won't distort...
I do think that aside from the pickups, the roller nut and changer alter the tone greatly from a non-pedal steel, so they really are two different instruments. |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 28 Dec 2008 7:17 am
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Joel,
The next thing to try is a buffer of some sort. I used to use a Goodrich Super Sustain Matchbox because it had a volume control and didn't hurt the signal.
I'm thinking that your issue may be something different though. The problem may not be the pickup signal. I use small Fender amps quit a bit. The pedal steel pushing them hard has more to do with tonal range and musical context than pickup output. I also play plenty of gigs with an old Ricky, Fender and a Clinesmith Bigsby. Those guitars will overdrive a Deluxe the same as a pedalsteel depending on the gig.
An Emmons single coil wound to around 18K in a PP should not be a problem.
_________________
Bob |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 28 Dec 2008 8:25 am Re: Why did pedal steel pickups get so hot?
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| Joel Paterson wrote: |
| I wish I could leave the Twin Reverb home and play pedal steel through my guitar rig without it being totally distorted. I can never get a good guitar sound and steel sound on the same gig without bringing out two amps. My lap steels sound so good through a deluxe or a vibrolux, but the Emmons sounds like mush. |
There's something wrong here, or I totally don't understand the question. When I don't need much volume (rehearsals or acoustic jams) I play my Emmons (18k pickup) through a Princeton, Deluxe, or Vibrolux, all stock silver faces. The Emmons sounds great, just as good as my '50s no-pedal Fender Stringmaster. These amps are set up to play clean to the top. Most guitar players would want to mod them for earlier breakup, like most guitar amps have. Are your small Fender amps black-faces, or possibly silver-faces with black-face mods for earlier breakup?
Seems to me, the distortion you are complaining about with steel and small amps is caused by typical guitar amp breakup, and has nothing to do with the pickups. If you use a volume pedal the way most steelers do, the amp never sees more than about half the pickup signal, except on long notes when the signal is dying out. This is like playing a guitar with the guitar volume knob dialed way back. Because of the chords and VP sustain, guitar amp distortion gets muddy quick for steel - its not because of the pickups. An amp set up to play clean to the top will not distort with any pedal steel pickup, no matter how hot. A typical guitar amp with breakup in the top half of the volume range will distort with any pickup, no matter how lightly wound (within reasonable traditional range), if you crank up the amp, and you dial up the guitar volume knob or stomp the volume pedal. How is this a pickup problem? I don't get the question. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 28 Dec 2008 9:35 am
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| Quote: |
| An amp set up to play clean to the top will not distort with any pedal steel pickup, no matter how hot. |
That is not my experience. There are preamp levels and power amp levels. A tube amp set to play 'clean to the top' usually refers to the power amp. This assumes that the preamp circuit isn't overdriven, but it definitely can be by a hot pickup. Most of my pedal steel pickups can easily overdrive the preamp on my small Fenders in Input #1 using a 12AX7 preamp tube in the first preamp position. Put a Telecaster there, and it doesn't distort at the same volume. Most players I know who play both guitar and steel would like to be able to use the same amp for both - and I think it is possible in a lower volume setting if one sets up correctly for that.
I agree that different players use the volume pedal differently. Not everybody runs it way backed off all the time - some lap steel players don't even seem to use a volume pedal at all - but that's a different topic. Obviously, Joel is getting distortion or he wouldn't be posting this. The question is why, and how to remove it.
If the preamp is indeed being overdriven, then one can either lower the signal level to the preamp or cut the preamp gain - hopefully it's not overwhelming the first gain stage itself, but successive stages.
To cut the signal - one can use a volume pedal or a pad. Input #2 pads the input, but lowers the input impedance - if the input signal is buffered, that should not get muddy, but he says he's still getting distortion. That's why Bob suggested a buffered pad. Alternatively, one can use a tapped pickup with lower-impedance (less winds) winding taps.
To lower the preamp gain, one can either change the preamp circuit or use a lower-gain preamp tube. The obvious advantage of changing tubes is that it is completely reversible and one can try different gain tubes to tailor the sound to one's liking.
BTW - I've played plenty of SF Deluxe and Vibrolux Reverbs, and most don't play 'clean to the top'. To me, the issue is the character of the distortion when pushed, which is subject to taste. But these are very different than an ultralinear Pro or Twin Reverb. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 28 Dec 2008 12:38 pm
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I'm still trying to understand this problem (which I've never had). Let's go back to the original question. Why are PSG pickups wound so hot? My impression is that this is to give a thicker tone, especially in the lows. And these hot pickups don't normally cause a problem, because of the way steelers use the volume pedal, and the way steel amps are designed and set up. But if you don't play with your VP backed off, and you play through a typical guitar amp with a preamp that is easily overdriven, then I can see how there would be a problem. I've never thought of that as a pickup problem - it's the way the amp is set up. So I guess Dave M. and I are saying the same thing. If you have a small guitar amp set up to give some pick sensitive breakup and crunch with a guitar, then it is not going to be clean enough for PSG except at very low volume settings. I suppose you could change the steel to a weaker pickup, but the tone will be different.
For many reasons there's just a basic incompatibility between what you want out of a tube amp for guitar and for pedal steel, and I don't see that this is all because steel pickups are hotter.
Maybe I use the term wrong, but to me "clean to the top" does not apply only to the power tubes. The small Fenders (and the earlier big ones) don't have a separate preamp gain control. If I dime the volume and get distortion, to me it's not clean to the top, regardless of whether the distortion is coming from the preamp or power amp. To be honest, some of my small silver-face Fenders will bloom and breakup a little at the very top; but they are clean through most of the volume range, and so for practical purposes are clean "almost" to the top. And that's good enough for most purposes. If it's not, then I use a bigger amp.
I guess I just don't understand the reasoning of plugging a pedal steel into a small guitar amp designed and setup for early breakup, and then when you get breakup blame it on the pickup. Well, yeah, the signal starts with the pickup, and some are hotter than others, but to me that's an amp problem. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 28 Dec 2008 3:08 pm
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| Quote: |
| But if you don't play with your VP backed off, and you play through a typical guitar amp with a preamp that is easily overdriven, then I can see how there would be a problem. I've never thought of that as a pickup problem - it's the way the amp is set up. So I guess Dave M. and I are saying the same thing. |
Not quite, David.
I rarely if ever run a small Fender like a DR or VR to seriously overdrive the preamp tubes. I don't usually want that sound - it's pretty buzzy. I only push the input section enough so the power tubes are pushed enough to saturate - and that's only if I want that power-tube overdriven sound. Many times, I want everything pretty clean, and I want that no matter how hard I hit the strings or volume pedal. I would only use a small amp like this if I don't ever need to be loud, so I'm happy to scale the preamp so it stays clean at all settings.
So, to me, if the pickup is so hot that my DR preamp tubes are saturating, I have a problem. It doesn't happen with a typical Tele or Stringmaster pickup, but does with a typical heavily-wound PSG pickup unless I do one of the things suggested above. I was just using the Deluxe last week, and even with the 5751, it can get close to the edge with a high-output pickup when the amp and volume pedal are opened up. Probably a 12AY7 would take care of that.
The low-volume high-gain sound from a Mesa Boogie is the prototypical preamp-overdrive sound. In fact, that's how Randall Smith started - by beefing up the power amp section and adding overdrive in the preamp section of smaller Fender amps. If that's what you want, great - sometimes it's useful. But most guitar players I know who run smaller Fenders higher on the volume control - specifically to get power tube saturation when pushed to the edge and clean otherwise - find that preamp overdrive annoying.
BTW - I put up a gain-ratio table for various preamp tubes a few years ago here: http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=64201 |
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Joel Paterson
From:
Chicago, Illinois, USA
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Posted 28 Dec 2008 4:34 pm
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| Staying out of this. |
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Marc Jenkins
From:
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 28 Dec 2008 4:54 pm
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| Joel, I have been having similar problems. After some consulting with Brad Sarno, I'm going to build a little box with simple, guitar-style volume and tone controls to improve what the amp sees. Something to think about. |
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Rick Abbott
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 28 Dec 2008 6:21 pm
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You could have your tech re-bias one channel. Remove the cathode-bypass capacitor and replace the 1.5k-ohm resistor with a 1k-ohm. This will set the first imput stage to receive the largest imput, while not compressing and "distorting" as quickly. The 12ay7 is the best idea! Really. Just get a very good one, and you'll be surprised at the tone. I use one in a Silverface Twin. 
_________________
RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Sehy #112
1975 Peavey Pacer 1963 Gibson Falcon |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 28 Dec 2008 6:43 pm
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Sorry, Joel - I didn't intend for this to turn into a technical slugfest.
David says his Emmons p/p sounds great in his Fenders stock. My sense is that this is the reason:
| Quote: |
| If you use a volume pedal the way most steelers do, the amp never sees more than about half the pickup signal, except on long notes when the signal is dying out. This is like playing a guitar with the guitar volume knob dialed way back. |
Great, if you happen to play with the volume pedal backed way off almost all the time, like "most steelers".
My experience is much more like you described. I use a volume pedal, but probably not knocked back as much as David does - he's argued in the past that it should normally be about 1/3 of the way on most of the time. I use a passive 500K pedal, and I think it sounds better not knocking it that far back all the time. Personal taste. Either way, I don't want the preamp to distort no matter where I cock the volume pedal. I just think that sounds bad, and I want to be able to push it without that happening. Like you, I don't mind pushing the amp sometimes, but not knock it into buzzy preamp tube distortion.
If that general approach suits you, there are several ways to get there, even without modding your amps - either a buffered pad to lower the pickup signal level without losing clarity and/or use Input 2 and/or change the front-end preamp tube to a lower gain version - as several people have suggested. I *think* I understood your question.
Over and out. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 28 Dec 2008 6:56 pm Re: Why did pedal steel pickups get so hot?
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Okay, Joel, let's try to summarize the above for direct answers to your questions.
| Joel Paterson wrote: |
| I'm wondering why pedal steel pickups got so hot - up in the 18-20k range? Was it the increasing volume of country bands in the 70's? |
Seems to me it was done to fatten up the tone rather than to increase volume. The small increase in volume of a hot pickup wouldn't really help much. The increased volume needs in the '70s were addressed with bigger, cleaner amps, such as the Peavey Nashville series. If you want tubes (as I do), you've got the Twin family (Twin, Dual, Vibrosonic, Super Twin).
| Quote: |
| I wish I could leave the Twin Reverb home and play pedal steel through my guitar rig without it being totally distorted. I can never get a good guitar sound and steel sound on the same gig without bringing out two amps. My lap steels sound so good through a deluxe or a vibrolux, but the Emmons sounds like mush. |
Dave M. describes how to lower the preamp gain and clean it up so you can play with a hot steel pickup without overdriving the preamp. But this might make the amp so clean you might not like it for guitar and lap steel.
There have been many threads about the dilemma of trying to get good tone for guitar and PSG out of the same amp. The ideal solution would be a big (100+ watts) amp with a clean channel for steel, and a dirty channel for guitar (and rock/blues steel). But you also need a built in or added attenuator between the power output and speaker, so with guitar you can crank up the volume to drive to saturation both the pre and power amps, but keep the actual volume down to a useful level.
Another solution is to use a big clean amp to handle steel, and use stomp boxes to get the desired grit and distortion for guitar. But of course, a box wont really sound like an amp driven to saturation. And with either of these solutions, you've still got a big heavy amp. You just can't get a small tube amp to have the clean headroom of a big tube amp.
If you are willing to sacrifice the tube power amp, you can put a tube preamp with one of the small powerful solid-state power amps, or powered speakers. And if you use neodymium speakers you can end up with a really light rig. Maybe you could put together a small light rig like that for steel, instead of your Twin. Then bring the Deluxe for guitar. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 28 Dec 2008 7:23 pm
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I just saw Dave M's last post. Yes, how one uses the volume pedal is a big part of this. I use an active Hilton pedal that has the same tone no matter where the VP is. I don't see the point of having the amp volume so low that you have to use only the last 1/3 or 1/4 of the VP throw. I use a big enough amp, and crank it up far enough that my normal VP position is about 1/3 to 1/2 on, with the rest of the throw reserved for sustain. That seems to be the way my steel heroes operate.
I just don't understand the point of wasting most of the VP throw. I wouldn't make it a blanket statement about this, but my impression is that using only the last part of the VP throw is a guitar player thing, and not the traditional pedal steel technique I learned. I don't mean to imply that either way is right or wrong. They are just very different approaches to coordinating VP volume and amp volume. The long-throw method gives more sustain, and minimizes the hot pickup problem. With a passive pot VP, a matchbox or other buffer can make the tone consistent throughout the VP range, and many steelers used these back when everybody used pot VPs. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 28 Dec 2008 7:29 pm
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With my Fenders I have no problem due to low DC resistance of the pickups (even thought they have about the same output as my GFI II) - but with the GFI I need to either use my Steeldriver II as a buffer, change to a lower-gain preamp tube, use the #2 input, rebias the power tubes on the colder side...or all the above. It depends on what sound I want in a particular situation. I never use the volume pedal on the "normal" way, so that's not an option (most of the time I don't use one at all).
The easiest method...and the one requiring no amp work or changes...is a Steeldriver or Matchbox - type unit. Dial the gain down with that (plus you add some control over tone - a feature steel manufacturers seem too have forgotten about although it's on just about every other type of guitar made).
you still may need to adjust the bias though - if your "amp guy" is primarily a 6-string amp tech he amy not quite get the issue with steel pickups. You may need to take the whole rig in and demonstrate the problem, as he may have no way of making changes and testing them.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 28 Dec 2008 7:41 pm
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OK, one more thing:
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| Dave M. describes how to lower the preamp gain and clean it up so you can play with a hot steel pickup without overdriving the preamp. But this might make the amp so clean you might not like it for guitar and lap steel. |
For the buffered pad solution, just use it for PSG, bypass it for guitar/lap-steel. This approach can work using just one channel, in principle.
For the other approaches, use one channel for PSG, the other for guitar/lap-steel. Then you get what you want for each.
I agree on the volume pedal approach being a personal choice. I use the full range of the pedal, depending on what I'm doing. For a slow ballad, I cock it pretty far back when padding. For faster, harder stuff, not so much.
The main difference is that if I floor the volume pedal for whatever reason, I don't want to drive the preamp into buzzy overdrive. And yes, sometimes I do that, especially with a small amp. If I have only a small amp, I want the full range of it. In fact, that's probably why I brought it - to get that nice output tube distortion for some things without blowing the roof off. Otherwise, I have a Nashville 1000 or some other "loud and clean" amps, which can and will blow the roof off. |
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Paul Redmond
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 28 Dec 2008 8:39 pm
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You may want to try lowering the p/u away from the strings a bit for starters.
PRR |
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A. J. Schobert
From:
Cincinnati, Ohio,
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Posted 28 Dec 2008 9:07 pm
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| I play through an older vegas 400, how hot does your PU really get? |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 29 Dec 2008 7:13 pm
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Proper use of a volume pedal will prevent any distortion from "hot" pickups. Of course, some players run the amp volume too low, and then try to increase volume by using more pedal. When they do that, a tube amp can easily see more input that it needs, and hence you can get distortion. Also, some players use powered pedals, and if these are turned up too high, it's very easy to get distortion from too much signal.
Running the amp volumes wide open is the preferred method to eliminate distortion (though it may sound counter-intuitive to many players). |
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Jan Viljoen
From:
Pretoria, South Africa
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Posted 27 Mar 2013 6:44 am Hot pickups and VP
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Thanks Guys, this thread gave me much food for thought.
This is an old posting, but I like it.
Hot pickups can be tamed.
Pedal to the metal!
_________________
Sierra S10, Stage One, Gibson BR4, Framus, Guya 6&8, Hofner lap, Custom mandolins, Keilwerth sax.
Roland Cube 80XL, Peavey112-Valve King and Special, Marshall 100VS. |
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