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Topic: playing in tune and fret markers |
Gerard Ventura
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 30 Dec 2012 7:55 am |
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| I recently noticed that playing large chords across a 6 or 8 string steel, if you kept the bar straight within the fret markers, the chord was out of tune, likely because there was no off-set or compensation at the bridge. So to play the chord in tune I had to angle the bar slightly to let the bass strings be a tad longer. Is this part of the instrument or is my technique to blame? thanks, and happy new year! |
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Tony Lombardo
From:
Alabama, USA
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Posted 30 Dec 2012 8:12 am
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I think the phenomenon you describe is the reason so many steel guitarists use some version of a tempered tuning on their instruments. I'm certainly no expert. Am I at least in the ballpark with my reply?
Sincerely
Tony L. |
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Tom Gray
From:
Decatur, GA
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Posted 30 Dec 2012 8:38 am
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From what you are describing it sounds like you might be putting a little weight on the bass strings. That will bend them sharp, so you have to slant to compensate. I don't know if that's what's happening in your case, but it's a common problem. The solution is to ease up on the pressure and make sure your is bar level with the fretboard. A little thing -- but it makes a big difference.
_________________
www.tomgraymusic.com |
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Martin Zeigler
From:
Camden, Maine, USA
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Posted 30 Dec 2012 9:09 am
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I've heard that bridge/saddle compensation is not an issue with steels as there is no actual fretting, so I'll go with something other than that. Most things I've read about tuning suggest what Tony L. said and things sound better if they are tuned a little off their true pitch.
Regards, Zig |
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Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 30 Dec 2012 10:01 am Your comment.................
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You mention "within the fret markers"..........
Are you per chance playing BETWEEN the frets or directly over the fret marker? |
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Jerome Hawkes
From:
Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 30 Dec 2012 10:42 am
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Generally, you don't want to play full across 8 string chords anyway - although you could, I've never seen a seasoned steeler do this unless it's for a special effect or the song modulates keys or maybe an ending. Now they will arpeggiate full 8 string chords, but this is almost always with some vibrato - so that would mask any fuzzies.
It's kind of like a piano player - just because they have 10 fingers and 88 keys doesn't mean they play full 10 finger 3 octave chords.
You have to tune a steel by the intervals - tuning it with a guitar tuner is gonna cause issues. Unless you have some really heavy bass strings, there shouldn't be a problem with intonation.
_________________
'65 Sho-Bud D-10 Permanent • '54 Fender Dual-8 • Clinesmith T-8 • '38 Ric Bakelite • '92 Emmons D-10 Legrande II |
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Gerard Ventura
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 30 Dec 2012 4:48 pm
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Ray - yes, I'm playing between the fret markers, like a guitar player would do (which I am).
Jerome- I notice the tuning discrepancy when I play octaves too (low to hi, I'm using F# A C# E repeated on an 8 string, A6 tuning). I agree about rarely playing big chords and using vibrato to smudge it a bit, it's more of a "concern" (I should be so lucky) with playing octaves for riffs or melody. thanks all! |
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Stephen Cowell
From:
Round Rock, Texas, USA
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Posted 30 Dec 2012 8:07 pm
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| Gerard Ventura wrote: |
Ray - yes, I'm playing between the fret markers, like a guitar player would do (which I am).
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Oh, you've gone and done it now!
_________________
Too much junk to list... always getting more. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 30 Dec 2012 8:42 pm
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| Gerard Ventura wrote: |
Ray - yes, I'm playing between the fret markers, like a guitar player would do (which I am).
Jerome- I notice the tuning discrepancy when I play octaves too (low to hi, I'm using F# A C# E repeated on an 8 string, A6 tuning). I agree about rarely playing big chords and using vibrato to smudge it a bit, it's more of a "concern" (I should be so lucky) with playing octaves for riffs or melody. thanks all! |
Gerard, your bar should be over the fret marker, not behind it. The center of your bar that touches the strings should be over the fret.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Jean-Sebastien Gauthier
From:
Quebec, Canada
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Posted 30 Dec 2012 9:17 pm
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| Steel guitar have to be very well tuned, you have to play chord over frets but its more complicated than that, you have to have the third and sixth a litle flat and the fifth and rooth a little sharp, you have to use your ear because a tuner is not precise enought. |
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David Matzenik
From:
Cairns, on the Coral Sea
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Posted 30 Dec 2012 9:48 pm
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My intonation is not the greatest. But sometimes its acceptable. I used to play some fiddle too. No markers to get in the way there. I noticed that when I improved with both instruments I couldn't tell just how I did it. With steel guitar the frets can be miles out. You can't see them when your over them, so you have to hear it. For the same reason I don't feel parallel strings are important either. To bring the bar up the neck and keep it dead square involves listening and adjusting just as much as with tapered necks due to the geometry of wrist and elbow. But as I said, I am unaware of the changes as I make them, most of the time. Another funny thing is that I know I'm out sometimes, and it sounds like killing a cat to me, but the same clanger will not be noticed by some listeners.
_________________
Don't go in the water after lunch. You'll get a cramp and drown. - Mother. |
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Jean-Sebastien Gauthier
From:
Quebec, Canada
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Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
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Posted 31 Dec 2012 3:10 pm
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| Tom Gray wrote: |
| ...it sounds like you might be putting a little weight on the bass strings. That will bend them sharp, so you have to slant to compensate... |
I agree Tom. Whether on non pedal or pedal steel, it is an issue of concern. The heavy wound strings dont have as much tension as the high pitched plain strings and are much easier to flex downward. The more strings there are, the more exaggerated this effect becomes when trying to keep them all in tune with a bar.
| Mike Neer wrote: |
| ...bar should be over the fret marker, not behind it. The center of your bar that touches the strings should be over the fret. |
Mike has suggested the proper placement for the bar from left to right over the fret, but also consider keeping the bar height level front to back (fingertip to palm), so that the bar is parallel over the fret line in both directions. The tendency is to apply more pressure at the palm than at the fingertip, so the bass strings sound sharp.
Clete |
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Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 31 Dec 2012 6:09 pm Just a meaningless comment..............
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On my Ric Bakelites.........I use Jerry Byrd's set-up of years ago, namely Gibson Spanish Guitar second strings for positions 1,2 & 3. The fourth string is a plain Spanish Guitar 3rd string.
This combination of strings makes forward and reverse slants so EASY to accomplish without the usual DRAG AFFECT of regular steel guitar strings with their graduated/increased gage as they go into the lower range.
I don't encounter ANY of the problems discussed here. No need to tune out of tune, either up or down? |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 1 Jan 2013 6:18 am
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At some point, everybody who's got great intonation put in some work on it. Years back, forumite Bob Hoffnar was selling a CD of "long tones and chords for ear training"; there's a lot of other ways to generate that stuff too. You don't just practice matching the tone, but playing intervals above and below them and vice-versa - i.e. treat the drone as a sixth, fourth, second etc. You can probably get there eventually playing along with songs, but it helps to isolate that one aspect and put in several minutes a day, every day, concentrating on it.
And, you can eventually develop an ear that's so picky a lot of the music you used to like sounds out of tune!
So then you get to practice "letting go"....  |
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Bill Mollenhauer
From:
New Jersey, USA
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Gerard Ventura
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 1 Jan 2013 7:42 am
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| Thanks everyone for the replies. I hadn't thought about downward pressure, etc and I am using 0.56 - .14 range of strings so that definitely is a factor, as well as position. Really the opposite of guitar, where you need to apply more pressure on the bass strings than the high ones. |
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Peter J. Faith
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 8 Jan 2013 8:56 am Staying in Tune
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| Add some vibrato to each chord or note, this allows the human ear to balance out the sound and select the tuning it wants. A straight note (no vibrato)will sound a little sharp or flat to different ears. It also has the benefit of making it sound better. |
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Ted Smith
From:
Idaho - shot of Jeff Peterson, Ted and Smith Curry "Nothing but the taillights tour"
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Posted 11 Jan 2013 8:33 pm
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Just my 2 cents from working this problem for 35 years.
When you study intonation on bridges you'll find it is for bar chord and string stretch. When you bar chord with a steel bar up the neck, no matter how perfect you are, you put more pressure on the bass side - the wound strings compensated back slightly adjust for this just like a standard guitar and...i.e. third on a 6-string lap steel is always stretched more than the second plain string - so if it is slightly compensated; it will be far more forgiving when playing fast.
Radius on the nut and bridge DOES matter for fast bar chording with a lighter bar. If you use a slow motion video as we did with players we found a lower first and 6th made a huge differance in a cleaner sound on the upper radius 345 strings on a 6 tuning. Often didn't do as much on an 8 because most players buying an 8 already had found a way to compensate and they would have the oppisite problem of pushing the upper radius strings out of tune with their playing style.
Now; the playing style of really great players has compensated for this one way or another - Cindy Cashdollar states to detune slightly on certain strings on her Dobro video - Players have used heavy bars and compensated with a rolling action.
NEW players from the standard guitar world or slide world often get very frustrated with lap steels because they use a lighter touch.
So the answer is; setting up the guitar to suit how you think you want it, then adjusting to the set up if that makes sense. Certainly everything was originally set up for right hand on Hendrix's guitar and he compensated until it sounded right to him without changing the instrument.
No one agrees on a set up because we all play differently (hand pressure, type of music, bar and picks, string gauge and wound or flat wound,) You should experiment until you find one that is natural.
keep in mind the shorter the scale the smaller the sweet spot over the fret - if I'm playing really clean church type music with a piano I want a long scale to play if I have it. Blues stuff usually is sliding into the note making it a lot easier and the music is moving faster than a church song so a short scale is better in that enviroment.
sorry to go on so long.
_________________
old Melobar guy |
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