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Topic: Larry Behm in Portland and the elimination of slop |
Tab Tabscott
From:
Somewhere between Vashon Island and The mainland.
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Posted 19 Oct 2012 7:17 am |
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I got to go down to Portland (Or) earlier this week and spent the day with Larry Behm going through my '77 PP. Larry is an expert on them, and he went and removed a ton of "slop" in the mechanism.
Some of the pedals had 3/4 of an inch of throw in them before they engaged the changer.
No longer!
We also removed a handful of extra (unnecessary) springs and collars...Plays like a dream now.
Reason I post this is because I hadn't really noticed that the slop was there...you know, I just sort of "played through it"-figuring "oh-thats the way PP's are... But just playing through the slop had made my pedal and knee work sort of "Sloppy". Now that the mechanism is tight(er) it focuses my attention on precision rather than slopping through stuff.
PP'ers-Check your pedals and knees and see how far you have to push some of them to make anything happen. Of course, you need a tiny little wee bit of slop in there for the 3rd pedal and whatnot, but there's probably some that can come out of there.
Larry also turned me on to a great change-putting a 4th string whole tone raise (E-F#) on a separate knee so you can access it by itself-without the B-C# on string 5, pedal C...that's pretty darn handy. He showed me 3 or 4 different applications for using it.
Anyway, between Larry and Lynn and all the great pickers in that neck of the woods-Portland is a hotbed of the PP world.
Tab
_________________
Tab Tabscott
Play nice.
They is none else. |
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Larry Behm
From:
Mt Angel, Or 97362
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Posted 19 Oct 2012 8:50 am
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Tab thanks for the kind words. I am from the Bobby Bowman school of using springs when you HAVE to, not just because you have a hand full laying around, which we saw plenty of on your guitar.
Slop in - slop out. I love the PP because you can "squeeeeez" the pedals, BUT wasted travel when nothing is happening is not the same deal.
Harder pulls and pushes because of stiff springs, or long springs, or to many springs is not to our advantage either. Remove them or shorten them when ever you can. Your intonation and speed will increase.
I have done this to many many many PP's, EVERY time the owner can not believe how much better they play.
Larry Behm
971-219-8533
_________________
'70 D10 Black fatback Emmons PP, Hilton VP, BJS bars, Boss GE-7 for Dobro effect, Zoom MS50G, Stereo Steel amp, Telonics 15” speaker.
Phone: 971-219-8533 |
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Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 19 Oct 2012 10:54 am About those spings and things.........................
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I'm not a mechanic........even tho' I attended the great BENSON Polytechnic High School here in Portland.
Thus, I have a question........
For what reason might those springs and things been installed there in the first place if they were not needed?
By removing them, might this adversely affect in some way, the issue of cabinet drop? |
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Andrew Buhler
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 19 Oct 2012 12:31 pm
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With respect to springs, I always thought they were there in order to ensure that pulls are properly timed. For instance, if you remove the longer spring that is typically on the raise bellcrank for the 10th string B, are you able to time that pull so it starts and stops in synch with string 5 B?. Without springs is there a trade off between smoothness and pulls starting/stopping at the same time? I think the attached photo shows typical spring application across the A,B, and C pedals. Just curious! Thanks!
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Tab Tabscott
From:
Somewhere between Vashon Island and The mainland.
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Posted 19 Oct 2012 12:53 pm
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Well in this case, it seems to have helped to get the raises closer together in actuation time on both A and B.
Before the operation there was 1/2-3/4 inch of movement in these pedals before ANYTHING actuated.
Now with certain springs gone the pedal action is a lot easier and seemingly smoother. It's easier to "milk" the changes without all that wasted movement in there and resistance from the chain of springs...
I did just notice this morning that if you turn the guitar upside down to work on it and move the pedals and knees without plugging it in-the changes make a different sound than they used to (the mechanism-not the string itself).
More of click than a clatter.
There were also several collars and springs attached to some rod ends which were there for no apparent reason other than to store them as spare parts...
Tab
_________________
Tab Tabscott
Play nice.
They is none else. |
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Larry Behm
From:
Mt Angel, Or 97362
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Posted 19 Oct 2012 4:16 pm
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Andrew you are correct in your observations, timing of the pulls/pushes. We cannot take off all of the springs just some.
In your photo I take off the pedal return springs on P1 and P2 and sometimes P3. I take off the small spring on string 3 and 5 leaving 6 and 10 on P1/P2. I do the same to the Eb lever.
Tab had so many half and full raises and drops on extra knee levers we left them all alone as they were working. To eliminate slop in P5 I just eliminate P8 completely. I live on P5 and P6, seldom use P8 so by taking out all of the rods and springs completely it makes the guitar play faster and easier.
This is not for everyone but it works for me and others I have assisted.
Larry Behm
_________________
'70 D10 Black fatback Emmons PP, Hilton VP, BJS bars, Boss GE-7 for Dobro effect, Zoom MS50G, Stereo Steel amp, Telonics 15” speaker.
Phone: 971-219-8533 |
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Brett Lanier
From:
Hermitage, TN
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Posted 19 Oct 2012 6:16 pm
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Ray, if anything I would think that removing the pedal return springs would reduce cabinet drop because you can feel the stop easier. That way you're not over pressing the pedals which causes more cabinet drop.
I was amazed at how much better my guitar played after removing the pedal return springs. The pedal action became much easier, the stops were more obvious, and I could also feel the vibrations of the guitar going down through the pedals - which is a very cool feeling. I also removed the small springs on the 3rd and 5th string pulls like Larry stated above.
I'm no expert steel mechanic (especially with push pulls) but I got my Emmons playing 100% better just by making little adjustments here and there. It's important to understand that you need a certain amount of slack on the raises in order for the lowers to work. Also when you feel your patience wearing thin, just put down the wrench and take a break or else you may regret it. |
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Tab Tabscott
From:
Somewhere between Vashon Island and The mainland.
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Posted 20 Oct 2012 6:45 am
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There was a lot going on in the undercarriage...still is, I guess...Clem Schmitz did the original work when the guitar lived in Ohio. Larry and I marveled at how inventive some of the work was to make happen what he wanted to have happen. Note the moved and redrilled cross bar with the anchor...also the free floating swivel which came from the obvious place on the crank. This was disconnected when I got the instrument, and when we reconnected it with a snap ring, it caused binding, so we took the ring back off. It was too much work to completely remove the rod and the associated collars just to get the floating swivel out, so we left it there...floating...it was never intended as anything more than a guide for the rod...
You can see the disconnected pedal return springs, and the notable lack of small springs on the raises between the collars and bell cranks.
There's a half stop on the RKL raise(s) (F#-G-G#) of the 1st string. It appears to be dialed in to the 3rd string lower on the C6th...ingenious...for the two raises on 1 and 2 on RKL you can see the doubled swivel on the single bellcrank. The 2nd string swivel is drilled and tapped.
Hope this is interesting...Tab
_________________
Tab Tabscott
Play nice.
They is none else. |
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Larry Behm
From:
Mt Angel, Or 97362
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Posted 20 Oct 2012 10:19 am
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Can you imagine what a 10 and 10 must look like. Jimmy Crawford had it all worked out, heaven help anyone who would want to make even a small change.
Larry Behm
_________________
'70 D10 Black fatback Emmons PP, Hilton VP, BJS bars, Boss GE-7 for Dobro effect, Zoom MS50G, Stereo Steel amp, Telonics 15” speaker.
Phone: 971-219-8533 |
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Waisznor
From:
Berlin, Germany
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Posted 20 Oct 2012 2:13 pm
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That was my 10+10:
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Horst Waisznor |
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Tab Tabscott
From:
Somewhere between Vashon Island and The mainland.
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Posted 20 Oct 2012 7:18 pm
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Wow.
_________________
Tab Tabscott
Play nice.
They is none else. |
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Tab Tabscott
From:
Somewhere between Vashon Island and The mainland.
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Posted 20 Oct 2012 7:28 pm
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Would you post the copedant on that guitar?
Thanks!
Tab 
_________________
Tab Tabscott
Play nice.
They is none else. |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 20 Oct 2012 9:07 pm
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| IMHO, the key to reducing slop and getting easier easier action, is by having all the changes on any given pedal or knee lever to bottom out at the same time. Springs on the lower string changes allow both changes to start the same time, and allow open tuning flexibility. At Larry's suggestion, I removed the return springs on pedals A & B, which also helps. |
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Waisznor
From:
Berlin, Germany
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Posted 21 Oct 2012 11:23 am
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Tab,
I changed the Crawford Cluster slightly.
Standard Emmons setups on both necks.
Additonally on E9:
LKV both B to Bb
2.LKL both G# to G
2.LKR first string F# to G
Pedal 9 string 5 B to C# and string 10 to Bb
Pedal 10 string 4 E to F#
Additionally on C6:
LKV both A to Bb
LKL string 3 C to C#
LKR both A to G#
RKL string 2 E to Eb; string 6 E to F
Pedal 9 G to F#
To mention is that this steel played like butter.
Horst
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Horst Waisznor |
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