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Topic: Fender pedal steel (800?). Newbie looking for some wisdom! |
Devin Sullivan
From:
Michigan, USA
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Posted 2 Nov 2012 2:06 pm |
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Long time follower, first time poster. There's so few knowledgeable pedal steel resources on the net and coming here is like a breath of fresh air. So I'm turning to you guys for some help and info.
I fell in love with the pedal steel a few years ago and wound up getting my hands on this C6 Fender 6 pedal guitar. Bought it via eBay from a Jerry Pyle in Nashville. It was in fair condition, not all pedals working. I took it to someone in Chicago who was well-intending, but pedal steel wasn't his forte. He reduced the 6 pedals to 3, and one of the cables subsequently broke so it's now down to 2 functioning cables. In the listing Jerry said it was a Fender 400, but after some research I'm wondering if it's not an 800.
Where I stand now is that while I love the pedal steel, I 1) Just don't have time for it right now and 2) Need to ultimately get something that is rod-driven as opposed to the finicky cables of the Fender. So I'm turning to you guys to find out what the heck it is exactly that I have. Is it a 400 or an 800? Any guess on year? There are 2 sets of numbers on the underside but a cross reference of Fender's serial numbers came up inconclusive. I read somewhere that there is often a penciled in date underneath the tuners but when I took my plate off it was just a bunch of epoxy and no writing. I'm going to a gear exchange tomorrow and would like to bring it, but not without first hearing from you guys what this guitar is worth, and what I can reasonably expect to get from it. Apart from the broken cables, it really looks to be in pretty great shape.
Thanks in advance for any feedback. Greatly appreciated!
-Devin
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Norman Evans
From:
Tennessee
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Posted 2 Nov 2012 4:09 pm
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Looks like an 800 to me. A 400 is an 8 string. Bobbe has an 800 at his store. Click on other/ used.
http://www.steelguitar.net/ |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 3 Nov 2012 5:55 am Re: Fender pedal steel (800?). Newbie looking for some wisdo
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| Devin Sullivan wrote: |
It was in fair condition, not all pedals working. I took it to someone in Chicago who was well-intending, but pedal steel wasn't his forte. He reduced the 6 pedals to 3, and one of the cables subsequently broke so it's now down to 2 functioning cables. In the listing Jerry said it was a Fender 400, but after some research I'm wondering if it's not an 800. |
You have an 800, the 10 string, single-neck model, dating from the late '60s. (Note: Fender serial number resources do not apply to their pedal steel guitars, so you can forget looking them up anywhere.)
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Where I stand now is that while I love the pedal steel, I 1) Just don't have time for it right now and 2) Need to ultimately get something that is rod-driven as opposed to the finicky cables of the Fender. So I'm turning to you guys to find out what the heck it is exactly that I have. Is it a 400 or an 800? Any guess on year? There are 2 sets of numbers on the underside but a cross reference of Fender's serial numbers came up inconclusive. I read somewhere that there is often a penciled in date underneath the tuners but when I took my plate off it was just a bunch of epoxy and no writing. I'm going to a gear exchange tomorrow and would like to bring it, but not without first hearing from you guys what this guitar is worth, and what I can reasonably expect to get from it. Apart from the broken cables, it really looks to be in pretty great shape. |
Firstly, if you don't have a lot of time, you likely won't get anywhere on pedal steel. It's one of the hardest musical instruments there is to maintain and to master.
Secondly, when you bought this thing you said it was "in fair condition". But then, you took it to someone who has totally screwed it up, has broken (and probably lost) pieces of it...and now that you want to unload it, you say it "looks to be in pretty great shape". 
Well, here's the straight skinny. When you bought it, it might have been worth $800, but as it appears now, it's probably worth less than half that.  |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 3 Nov 2012 6:14 am
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To expand on Donny's remarks, for pedal steels, mechanical condition matters as much or more than cosmetic condition.
The hack in Chicago didn't ruin the appearance of it, but he took an $800 guitar and made it into a piece needing 4-600 of work to return to being an $800 guitar. Sure it has the tone, and it's pretty, but it don't work.
I thought I'd read that Michael Yahl was making parts but they're not on his site.
If you have a $5000 car needing a $2000 head job, it's only worth 3.
If you were me, you'd hang on to it til you got around to getting the parts to fix it. But you'd also have three other works in progress.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Ben Elder
From:
La Crescenta, California, USA
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Posted 3 Nov 2012 8:59 am Age
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To expand on the question of age, my guess [see UPDATE below] is late 60s/early 70s, going mostly by the Fender case logo. I think those came in in the late 60s in the CBS era. Looking at the numerical pot codes (guides to deciphering these available at various vintage guitar sites) might help. Pot codes would lead the actual manufacturing date by weeks, months or even years. (CBS was notorious for buying huge quantities of inferior---but "cost-effective"--parts and materials. So part acquisition might lead manufacturing by long time spans under this business model.)
Steel guitars were numbered in their own series, so there's no correlation with Teles, Strats, Jazzmasters, Jaguars, etc. Your serial number is the 00381 (the other is a part number) and just guessing, they didn't crank these out in Stratocaster kinds of numbers. So 381 Fender 800s could have stretched over several years from 1964 when it was introduced.
With patience, and not a lot of mechanical talent, Fender cable steels can be worked on. I just changed over the copedent of my recently acquired one and got through it without incident. There is a Fender 800 owner's manual online which was a help. Parts do turn up for sale but they are enthusiastically sought after and bid-for on eBay.
There's also a Fender steel guitar website:
http://z8.invisionfree.com/Fender_Steel_Forum/index.php
[UPDATE: I looked back at a thread I posted on at the FSF (I'm "54dualpro" over there) and this had slipped my mind. In July I bought an original invoice on eBay for Fender 800 serial number 00386. July 1973. Forget the pot codes...]
I think it's widely thought that 800 models are the most desirable--and perceived as the hardest-to-find--of the four models of this period. 400s and 1000s, as eight-strings, are musically limited and the D-10 model 2000 is in the aircraft-carrier weight class...not that an S-10 800 is by any means a featherweight.
_________________
"Gopher, Everett?" |
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Ethan Shaw
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 3 Nov 2012 9:25 am
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| New cable assemblies are pretty easy to make with parts from the hardware store. For $30 or so, you can make it good again! They're great guitars,don't give up on it. The fender steel forum can show you how to make the cables. |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 3 Nov 2012 10:31 am
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Good luck fixing it up. I have five Fender cable steels, and I've had trouble with every one of them. The main problem is cables tangling at the main pulley. 
Cables don't normally break, unless the mechanism or cables are jammed and you decide to free the problem by putting your entire weight on the pedal. 
Once they're working they produce great results, and they certainly have a great tone, but it's rather like owning a sports car; you have to become a knowledgable mechanic.  |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 3 Nov 2012 7:26 pm
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| Alan Brookes wrote: |
| Good luck fixing it up. I have five Fender cable steels, and I've had trouble with every one of them. The main problem is cables tangling at the main pulley. |
That's caused by really nothing more than having the cables way too loose. The cable tension (as controlled by the turnbuckles) has a pretty narrow margin to operate optimally. Too tight, and the cables will pull the fingers off the stops and make accurate tuning impossible. Too loose, and the cables will cause pedal action to become terribly mushy. Way too loose, and you'll have the problem that Alan described.
With experience, you can adjust the cables by feel alone, without even having to turn the guitar over or look at what you're doing.  |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 3 Nov 2012 9:36 pm
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Hi Deven... You indeed have a Fender 800... I am sitting right next to my own Fender 800 as I write this..
. It is a mess underneath but can be rebuilt with some new cables.. They are very hard to find generally and are all different lengths for each pull. Mike Yahl may or may not be making cables, not sure. In any case, its probably the wrong steel to get started on, mainly due to the work needed to get it up and running.
You can sell it here but won't get much for it in the shape its in. Mine isn't as nice as yours at least in your pictures, as I have some paint fade. However mine has 6 operating pedals and 4 perfectly functional knee levers that were custom made for my guitar... I would say i could get $1000 for mine on a good day.. I sold one a few years ago with 6 pedals and 3 knees that also operated perfectly and got $900..
You need several hundred dollars worth of hard to get parts, and substantial set up work... A buyer would have NO idea if the changer and tuners were any good, and that will lower the price..
As stated, some guys make the cables themselves, but its not that easy to make them good, unless you have superior mechanical ability.
Most buyers won't pay top money for a project steel.
I have restored 2 Fender 800 steels, and owned a 400 and am very familiar with them. I would be interested in yours if you care to sell, and care to price it fairly, or can trade some other gear for it if you would like.
If you want to keep it, and would like to learn how to set up your steel and get it "running
right, get in touch and I will walk you through it over the phone.. If you want out of it, lets talk as well... email me if you'd like to fix your steel and play it, or if you want to sell it,,, bob
bullet_bob@lycos.com
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 5 Nov 2012 9:58 am
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It's a shame all you cable gurus live the other side of the country. I would love someone in the know to look at my instruments and get them up and running. My friend Basil Henriques in England uses his D10 Fender professionally all the time, and has no problems with it at all. My talents are mainly in building non-pedal consoles and lap steels: I'm a dummy when it comes to mechanisms, although I've taken them to pieces and put them back together several times.  |
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Russ Tkac
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Posted 5 Nov 2012 10:43 am
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Alan,
Contact Dave Zirbel on the forum. He is in your backyard and plays a 400, 800 and a 2000 and could possibly give you a bit of advise. A little 800 action. 
http://youtu.be/KAF_xEKgk78 |
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Fred Glave
From:
McHenry, Illinois, USA
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Posted 5 Nov 2012 11:02 am
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If it's just the cables we're talking about, that shouldn't too much of a problem. A trip your local hardware store will get you everything you need. I am not the most mechanically inclined person by any stretch, but I managed to add knee levers to my Fender 2000 with cable and pulleys. I also replaced a couple cables as well. You will need to know how to solder. It's not a monumental job. If you don't have the time to do the repairs, then you probably won't have time to play it either. Once the Fender is up and running properly, the maintenance isn't that big of a deal.
_________________
Zum Encore, Zum Stage One, Fender 2000, Harlan Bros., Multi-Kord, |
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Devin Sullivan
From:
Michigan, USA
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Posted 8 Nov 2012 1:03 am
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Thanks everyone for the (mostly) helpful replies. To clarify: The work in question done by the less-than-qualified guy in Chicago was not as extensive as it sounds. I got the guitar with 4 out of 6 cables, with pretty much 2 working. One of the originals was kept while I think airline cable was used to fabricate 2 more cables. For whatever reason though they both wound up breaking at the connected/soldered ends. So I should ammend my original post to say that really only one of the pedals is functioning now.
While I'm obviously no expert it seems to me that 5 functioning cables are really all I'm missing (when I say "all" I understand that it's a pretty integral part of the instrument. I've played guitar for years and know enough to understand the condition of the other areas. The tuners are in excellent condition. The ability of the instrument to hold its tune throughout relentless note bending was one of the first things that really impressed me about the guitar. The saddle is sturdy with the little bearings turning smoothly. The pots are scratch-free. The pickup (which I presume is stock, compared to other pictures I've seen online) has a wonderfully warm tone. That goofy damper is like new, with essentially no string indentations in the foam. I don't know who would use that anyway. The main housing underneath is totally free of any sort of corrosion and each bar/lever pulls cleanly. And cosmetically the guitar (and the case for that matter) are in terrific condition, especially if the general consensus is that it's somewhere around 40 years old.
All that to say, it really seems to me that the cables are the only area of this guitar that need much work. While feedback has been mixed it sounds like there are at least a few who maintain that cable repair/fab aren't as daunting of a task as I originally thought. There's been enough of a positive response in that regard that I'm wondering if I should just give it another shot, and if I'll be kicking myself for letting it go. I guess I have to give it some more thought. Bob, in your estimation, what would be a fair price? What would you be interested in trading? Thanks kindly for the offer of help/assistance. I guess Russ (tonecaster) lives pretty close to me and has offered to lend some help as well if I'm interested, so if I wind up not selling it right now perhaps I'll give the 'ol thing another shot!
Anyway, thanks again to those who provided all the helpful feedback. Greatly appreciated.
-Devin |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 8 Nov 2012 11:33 am
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Give it a shot. What have you got to lose? Fixing it yourself is cheaper, and is an education in how the thing works.
By the way, cables breaking at the soldered joint are usually either a bad soldering job, or the mechanism being stuck, in which case as you apply pressure with your foot something will break at the weakest joint. The answer there is, if you have to apply a lot of pressure, something is stuck, so find out what it is and don't just press harder on the assumption that it will free up. |
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