Bad harmonics, beats on string pairs.

Frank Montmarquet · From: The North Coast, New York, USA

Recently I have noticed that when played together, especially above the 12 fret, certain strings pairs have a bad harmonic, or beat.. Strings 1&2 and 3&4. It seems to be during the attack, a minor third is worse than the major 3rd. Listen:

http://soundcloud.com/frank-mon/stings-1-2-sep-2-2012-7-47-43
and
http://soundcloud.com/frank-mon/strings-3-4-sep-2-2012-7-48-06

It's worse at the end of the clips, when the bar is up near the 15-17 fret. What is it, how to get rid of it?

I have tried the following without much effect:

Changed strings, and string brand, made sure the ball ends are centered in the slots and the twisted end is not on the changer radius.

Moved the strings to the side a little on the changer, away from any possible groves.

Turned the rollers when changing the strings.

The pickup is taped, switching the 3 way switch has a minor effect.

A little oil on the ends of the strings at the changer and rollers.

Tried to tune it away.

Tried a different amp.

Lowered the pickup.

It's still there when picking softer, or using ear phones or another amp. It's still there through earphones and an RP-155 (no amp).

Only 2 things worked a little, cutting 400 & 800 HZ on a 7 band EQ or using compression with the RP-155.

It seems to have gotten worse over time. I didn't notice much because lately I have been drilling single note scales and chords near frets 3-7. Decided to play some harmonized scales and revisit some other things and found the problem.

I do not use a volume pedal, it's guitar straight into the amp. Seems the strings have an off pitch when first picked, when they settle down, the beat goes away. Is it a natural thing, just sounds louder because of some pickup, cord, resonance thing? Something loose or vibrating? I am missing something in equipment or technique?

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Check your wrist. I bet the bar ain't square. That aint harmonics, that is a sour interval.
Many people have a hard time keeping the bar straight once it gets in front of the torso.
I suppose it's possible the guitar is out of tune, but you only complain about it up high.
All of the fixes you have tried are misdirected energy: the problem is in your ass. It needs to move from behind the desk to behind the guitar
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Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

You are just playing out of tune. Practice playing in tune along to some drone notes real slow. The fact that you can tell it sounds bad is a good start.
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Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Sounds like you are not balancing the bar perfectly across the strings. Amp-distortion - overdriven pre/eq stages on the attack (which I hear quite a lot of in your recordings), will add its own harmonics and non-harmonics and make any bar/tuning-flaws sound much worse.

You may have a slight 'PSG-out-of-tune' problem, but it is much more likely that you have a 'not-playing-in-tune' problem - IMO the main reason we have so many "tuning" threads on this forum.

No intervals on/between any strings will sound perfect and more or less beat-free, unless you balance the bar right for each note/interval by ear (and memory) as you play up and down the neck. This comes with practice, practice and more practice.

Ransom Beers · Posted 5 Sep 2012 4:17 am

Yeah,what they said.I used to sound like that,then figured out my belly was in the way,lost some weight,slid my seat back a little tied a rope to my hand,greased my pickin' hand then quit & poured another drink.My story 'n' I ain't changin' it.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Sounds like string buzz or mechanical resonance to me, usually caused by a problem with the radius on the tops of the fingers. It could also be a speaker or amp problem that's causing the artifacts I'm hearing.

Curt Langston · Posted 5 Sep 2012 8:05 am

No, simply out of tune, nothing more. No need to try to come up with some way out explanation.

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

...some more of that good Cajun Jacques Daniel wine perhaps...

Ray Anderson · From: Jenkins, Kentucky USA

Mine was bar pressure and making sure your fingers behind the bar were firmly on the strings. Also making sure the bar was lined up on the fret, in tune. I overcame this with practice and memory. Lots of practice and then some more practice. You'll overcome it. Just keep on Steelin'. Winking

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I'm more in tune on the high notes if I move my seat further to the right. I used to think centering on the 12th fret was good. Now the center of my body is at the 17th fret. It really did make a difference.
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Bo Legg · Posted 5 Sep 2012 4:05 pm

So I'm sitting sideways at the 17th fret with my head swaying back and forth, my right hand twisted up bouncing up and down a thousand times a min with my right elbow up in the air, hunched way over looking right straight down the bar and fret while I playing at a gig.
A guy comes up to the stage and says to me
"Boy! For a severally disabled person you really play in tune.”

Peter den Hartogh · From: Cape Town, South Africa

Could it be the sound of springs vibrating?
Either the springs that are part of the mechanics, or the springs under the pick up?
Try to dampen them with a piece of foam.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

I just listened again, after seeing Donny had a different conclusion ( I do that if somebody I respect has an alternate idea).
I think there maybe something to Georg's take on too much gain augmenting a clash, but I think I'll stick by my "sour interval" theory.
Other suggestions having nothing to do with the bar: turn master volume up, earlier gain stages down; make sure that your legs don't start moving 1 of the knee levers when you get high up the neck. New players often end up twisting their bodies as they get out of the way of the bar hand, bumping 1 of the knee levers will knock those strings out of tune
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Frank Montmarquet · From: The North Coast, New York, USA

Tuning and bar movement does not make this go away. I have tried moving the bar from a forward slant to perpendicular to the strings, to backward slant, the pitch changes but it does not diminish in volume or go away. I have tuned each string in turn, sharp or flat by up to 40 cents, no change. (of course it sounds out of tune when I do that but the beat of harmonic does not go away.)

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

I'm with Georg on this.

Jack Strayhorn · From: Winston-Salem, NC

Strings discording. A very common problem. I remember talking with Weldon once where he goes through several sets of strings to get a full set on the guitar that will tune. JD Maness has had this same problem and I have as well. The strings diameter must remain consistant throughout it's length or this will occur. It is not a tuning issue. I once had to split the difference so that I could find a way to live with the tuning above and below the 12th fret.

Stephen Cowell · From: Round Rock, Texas, USA

I'm hearing 'wolf tones' that die out before the strings do... is that what we're talking about? It does sound like the springs underneath... is it picking-level dependent? Does it happen with softer picking? It kind of sounds like intermodulation distortion, where the two frequencies mix and non-harmonic resultants come out... think playing complex chords into a fuzz box. Make sure you're not clipping your pre section... crank the volume pedal down and pick hard. Goes away? Not the guitar then.

I've heard this come from guitars with the pickups too close to the string... I've heard this come from stretched strings (varying diameter)... I've heard this come from speakers needing break-in... I've heard it come from old filter caps in the (tube) amp... lots of different things possible here.
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Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Don't know what amp is used or settings on it, but those recordings contain too much amp distortion (and maybe also some recording equipment distortion) to judge playing, tuning and other details by.

To reduce or eliminate the pre/eq-amp distortion, attenuate the signal before it enters the amp - use a volume pedal and set it at around -12db (25% open). That should provide enough headroom.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Have somebody else play your steel and see if the problem is still there.
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Carson Leighton · From: N.B. Canada

This could be your problem..Listen very carefully and see if one string beats by itself..If it does,,then you may have a scale problem, a real bad set of strings or something else within the instrument is causing it... Carson

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inharmonicity

Alfred Ewell · From: Virginia, USA

First, I will make the concession that the tuning could be a wee bit out - check the pair on a high fret by standing and looking down to see the bar is exactly perpendicular to the strings.
OK. My fiddle teacher said, You picked the hardest instrument, and then you had to find one harder, the pedal steel. I've noticed there are more than a few steelers who also play fiddle so I will bring up the principle of complex arcs.
In drawing (or learning to) a bow across the strings, you have to recognize how the shoulder joint makes the upper arm move in an arc that interacts with the arc that the elbow joint makes the lower arm move in. Yes, after a while it becomes intuitive, but it is a definite hurdle. This principle most definitely applies to moving the bar in front of oneself and finding (or not) that the geometry of the wrist demands a different twist because your lower arm has moved so far to the right. That leftward twist the wrist has to do is not as intuitive as we might like. But coming to terms with the anatomy will bring the bar into the perpendicular and three or more, not just two, strings will chord right. (I say that because my fiddle is a five-string.)
The extremes point out clearly the curve nature of our bodies where we like to think we move in straight lines. We can if we remember how to blend the curves. Oh - isn't there a movie out now about trouble with curves?

Frank Montmarquet · From: The North Coast, New York, USA

It seems to be some type of IM distortion due to pre amp overload. When I play through a Digitech RP-155 using earphones I still hear it, but when I turn the RP-155 output vol down, most of it goes away.

If I run the RP-155 into my amp (Roland Cube 80XL) I hear it with the RP-155 output high and amp vol low, but it goes away with the RP-155 output turned down and the amp vol. up. Using the compressor in the RP-155 also kills it.

I should have realized this. I had I similar sound from my Emmons student model. It sounded good, but the PU had an open (still played OK), had JW rewind it and when I installed it I bypassed the vol control. I don't use a volume pedal so that mattered. Then things didn't sound so good when picking 2 or move strings. At the time I thought it was just the sound of old strings. Never changed them because I was about to switch to the new guitar.

Still would like to play through a "known good amp" and have a "known good guitar" play though my amp to make sure.

Is this a problem with the Roland Cube?

Alfred Ewell · From: Virginia, USA

Chris Buchanan · From: Macomb, IL

Does it do it when not plugged in to an amp? I have the same problem, amped or not.
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André Sommer · Posted 9 Sep 2012 11:52 pm **Re: Bad harmonics, beats on string pairs.**

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