Rickenbacker B6 hum on amp drive channel normal?

Charles Dennis · From: New York, USA

I have a Rickenbacker B6.

I play it through a tubeworks mosvalve rt 2100.

when I play it through the clean channel, it is quiet. sounds wonderful.

when I switch to the drive channel (distortion channel), it hums. alot.

is this normal?

I do not have a ground problem. I have plugged in my national tonemaster lap steel. I have plugged in my fender tele. and tried playing through a different amp. they all sound fine. and no hum.
the hum will go away if I stand a ways away from the amp, and turn the Rick 90 degrees (so the wrong orientation for lap style playing).

would someone please tell me if this is normal??

Stephen Cowell · From: Round Rock, Texas, USA

Yes, it is normal... 'drive' means that the signal is overdriven, which involves amplification to the point of compression, with some clipping. With a single-coil pickup that hum will always be there... when you add drive, you're losing signal/noise ratio... in effect, you're amplifying the noise.

When you play the noise is gone... until you quit, when it comes back... the compression effect is bringing the noise up. Learn to kill the volume/drive when not playing, is the only way... or be famous, like Jimi Hendrix, and folks will overlook the noise.
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Charles Dennis · From: New York, USA

much appreciation Stephen.

saved me some money taking it to get checked out.

I owe you one.

Stephen Cowell · From: Round Rock, Texas, USA

Hey, thanks... you could always use a noise gate... put the gate sense before the drive, if you can... expensive rigs have that option... that way the noise is killed before the drive is applied... google 'side chain compression' for more.
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Charles Dennis · From: New York, USA

thank you very much. I would love to get a grip on side chaining. I guess I make it harder than it is.
I think its the kind of thing that I would really learn by doing.

(funny comment 2 posts ago about getting famous and jimi. hahahahahha)

I have a Boss BE-5 pedal board from the 80's.

http://www.bossarea.com/other/be5.asp

it has a noise suppressor. I should check it out.

any comments? do you think it would help?

Stephen Cowell · From: Round Rock, Texas, USA

That looks like they've done it for you... they probably key the noise suppressor off the beginning of the chain, then apply the gate at the end... can't hurt to try!
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Charles Dennis · From: New York, USA

found a link to the manual. the block diagram shows the suppressor located after the compressor and overdrive. it has a threshold knob.
after that comes the other effects.

am wondering if noise suppressor is just an insert then. with no key or side chain function shown.everything is in series in the diagram.

or.............. if there's more to it. but Boss did not show it in the diagram of the board.

Stephen Cowell · From: Round Rock, Texas, USA

In that case it may not be side-chain style... it's a pretty old box, anyway.

Take a look at the Boss NS-2:

http://www.guitarcenter.com/In-Store-Used-USED-BOSS-NS2-NOISE-SUPPRESSOR-PEDAL-072112-107981204-i2636086.gc

I couldn't find a manual online... but it looks like you have an input/output (for your dry signal, starts your chain) and a send/return (for the gated signal)... cheap too! Other options include Rocktron Hush etc... no dearth of options here.
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Charles Dennis · From: New York, USA

thank you so much for your kindness in your detailed reply.

I will check out what you suggested.

wonder what Jimi would have sounded like on a Ric B6.

Denny Turner · From: Oahu, Hawaii USA

Some info .... tidbits might be helpful in picturing noise and noise gates:

Here's some ways to mentally picture what's going on with noise, and managing it: An amp has a volume / voltage limit called the ceiling. Graphicly, imagine signal voltage going into the amp as eminating from the bottom of a sheet of paper and moving upward toward the top (ceiling), the distance between the top of the signal voltage and ceiling is called headroom. When a guitar is plugged into an amp raw (no effects) and the amp gain and volume turned down below the ceiling, then the noise is a very small percentage of the signal / voltage and noise peak signals / voltages are down at the bottom of the sheet of paper while the guitar's signal / voltage is up somewhere higher towards the top, ...and generally the noise to signal ratio remains about the same until turning the amp up causes the total signal / voltage to get close to the ceiling where the total signal / voltage can't go any higher BUT NOISE'S SMALLER VOLTAGES CAN STILL INCREASE / GET LOUDER. And, there are many other nuances in the signal that are so small they can't be heard or only faintly heard when the preamp and power amp have plenty of headroom. So as you turn either the input signal voltage up with the guitar or with the effects, or turn the amp's gain (preamp) or volume (power amp) up, the signal voltage / sound on the paper cannot go any higher than the top of the paper which represents the ceiling limit of the amp. When an amp doesn't have a preamp gain / volume knob and a master volume knob, then the preamp and power amp sections increase their gains and volumes together with the 1 volume knob; But still the reason so many players like old small amps is because by turning up both the preamp and power amp with the same knob, the preamp and power amp gets turned up to the point of being rich while the whole amp isn't too loud (and the power amp itself takes on characters we're discussing when it's signal gets near it's ceiling).

The noise to signal ratio remains generally the same at any given input signal voltage or preamp gain / voltage setting UNTIL the total signal / voltage gets near the top of the ceiling capability of the amp. As either input or preamp gain is turned up close to the ceiling capability of the preamp (and the power amp to a lesser degree) the rounded-top of clean signal waves start to flatten out and deform because that's all the clean signal voltage the preamp can produce accurately, and the portion of the signal that's reached the ceiling takes on sounds inherent to reaching or exceeding a particular amp model's capabilities. Even before reaching the ceiling we can hear those "hotter" nuances start to be heard as gain / volume is turned up. When the input signal or amp gain is turned up even more at or beyond the ceiling it makes the signal wave so flattened that it gets more square than rounded. When the peaks of total signal reaches headroom and can't go any higher, then the previously smaller nuances can get louder and noticeable. Players commonly refer to the signal wave being flattened as distortion or "grunge". This is the point which many players also call "hot" or "hotrod" or "rich" or "creamy" etc. Most players refer to even more voltage / square signal wave sound as "high distortion" and "metal" (for examples). The gain voltage can be turned up further to the point that the sheet of paper / amp's 'envelope' gets saturated and super rich with square wave, nuance noise, harmonics, wow and flutter, etc. which most players refer to as 'heavy metal'. High gains and saturation excentuate instability of the signal shapes and nuances which accentuates picking attack, harmonics, etc.

And in those high gain settings; When the guitar's signal is silenced, it's signal is stopped but noise can now jump up in new headroom left by the absence of the guitar's signal voltage, and thus the noise becomes louder and can even reach or exceed the ceiling. Voila, stop playing and the noise suddenly appears much louder:

When the guitar is being played then the low noise ratio is a small amount of the signal and not very noticeable in the guitar's and effects strong signal; But when the guitar is not being played and thus not putting out it's inherent strong clean signal, then the amp is reproducing just the noise which jumps up to fill more of the preamp's headroom or even to the ceiling if the noise signal is strong enough ....voila "heavy metal" feedback chaos when the guitar itself is silenced, ...all relative to the amount of gain and volumes set on the effects and amp, and again most often in the amp's preamp. This whole picture is also quite "exactly" what's being done in "distortion" / "metal" effects boxes which are themselves just small preamps which further boost the input signal and thus amp's saturation even more.

NOW, a noise gate get's it's clamp-closed-off and release-open-on sense from the guitar's strong signal (and whatever effects are upstream of the noise gate) which is stronger than the free-air and circuitry noise (unless the effects and amp gains are set so high as to be overpoweringly useless), and without the guitar signal the voltage drops and the noise gate closes / clamps and doesn't allow any signal to go to the downstream effects (if any) and to the amp, leaving the amp without input, ....but when the guitar is played and thus produces it's stronger signal, the gate releases / opens and the guitar's low noise ratio signal is allowed to go to the amp and peoples ears hear the strong guitar signal but can't hear the low ratio of noise (unless the player has set a too-high ratio of noise in the effects boxes). BUT when the signal goes into the amp, the amp must also be set so that the amp's gain / voltage and saturation are not so high that it distorts and destructs the input signal / sound intended.

It was the above factors turning effects and amps up into banshee saturation and distortion ...and experimenting with gain, saturation, distortion and signal gone wild, that gave rise to realizing that there is indeed both pleasant and unpleasant "new" sounds contained in those high gain settings. And in that arena it became popular for those sounds to first be created in stomp box effects fed into amps. But then amp makers started realizing that big amps turned up to that point were begging for a solution to being too loud; So they gave the preamp and power amp their own gain and master volume knobs that allowed taming via setting preamp gains high and volumes could be set to levels desired (not withstanding that power amps also have higher voltage nuances as well ...and it's not uncommon for some players to prefer setting the master volume high and the preamp gain lower to achieve the sound they want at lower volumes. Good if done right ....Bad if not, although Bad sound is often players intent to be perceived as good, which many people do while others don't. But that's good; Many different restaurants foods to choose from.

Another noise factor is that a guitar pickup senses and picks up free air noise like an amplified antenna. But the sensing electro-magnetic field of the pickup is somewhat planal and elongated lateral to the pickup, aligned latterally with the pickup and at right angle to the guitar's top, and thus relative "on stage" to the guitar top's angle to horizontal, ie shaped somewhat like a fuzzy stretched out vehicle inner tube ratiating at right angle to the guitar top & bottom and aligned with the pickup. So like a pocket AM transitor radio can be rotated to get the best reception, so can a player horizontally rotate his & the guitar's horizontal position to get the minimum sensitivity of that field between the guitar and amp (or a noisy flourescent or neon light or other noisy sources) and thus reduce the free air noise, and the acoustic and electronic noise feedback between the guitar and amp. This is particularly the case when the guitar or amp power source isn't providing enough ground to minimize free air noise.

Also keep in mind that a volume pedal is a great noise gate if the 'off' side of the pot is wired to ground (not just open) which sends / kills to ground any signal / sound upstream when the pedal is depressed to Off. The same thing goes for a guitar's volume knob. Many years ago during a period that my main-player guitars had more switches than the space shuttle and looked like a Gulf service station on grand opening day, ....I would install an On/Off switch on my guitar, Off position wired the circuit to ground; Which would not only guarantee the guitar could be completely silenced but afforded some interesting On/Off effects while playing, like some old Fender steels' momentary boo-wah buttons.

------------

"But what does it all mean, Mr. Natural?" = "Play dulcimer, chilluns ....play dulcimer"!

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Charles Dennis · From: New York, USA

just saw this. wow. thanks alot.

will read in the morning. and comment.

Charles Dennis · From: New York, USA

ok. thank you again for the so very detailed reply.

will read more carefully first chance I get. and reply again.

the subjects of volume and gain are very important.

the better I understand the distinction
between the 2, the better.

edit: now I have read your post. thank you again.
(hey the word "again" is the word gain with an "a" in front of it. cool.

my understanding of gain is this: it is a sensitivity adjustment for an amplifier's input stage.
the higher its set, the less of a signal (coming from your guitar), that it needs to make big output.

so you strum your guitar lightly and the amplifier puts out a large signal. if you set the gain high enough, the amp will distort the signal and give you a distorted sound that may or may not be pleasing, according to your taste (and within reason. I would think that beyond a certain point, it is generally not subjective, it simply sounds bad).

if you have the gain turned way down, you can wail on the guitar, and the amplifier will not put out much signal. the sound will be clean. not distorted. but if its turned too low, you will not get enough signal for it to be any good.

thus the term gain staging.

this is my understanding of the term gain.

as for gating and compression, I appreciate indeed your explanation.

any comments on my thoughts are most welcome.

Denny Turner · From: Oahu, Hawaii USA

I just edited out some noise from my previous posting; But still looks like I need a darn noise gate!

Surely Others can clarify some of my noise. Confused

----------

Charles,

I think you and I were editing at the same time.

I ran out of time and will have to come back to reply a little more.

Best Wishes,
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Charles Dennis · From: New York, USA

thanks Denny. hahahaa.

yes I look forward to reading any reply you have. God knows I am no authority and I should be very quick to say that anything I post could be wrong.

I look forward to re-reading your edited post.

Denny Turner · From: Oahu, Hawaii USA

Charles,

I'm no authority either; More like when you fall out of a boat enough times over a long enough period, ....you get decent at it !

Smile

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Charles Dennis · From: New York, USA

hahahahahahahaha.

just re-read your post.

nothing more to add at the moment.

thank you so much again for your replies. they are very helpful indeed.

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