six string tuning vs eight string tuning C6

Mack Quinney · From: Texas, USA

Got my Gold Tone LS6 back from the shop yesterday and tuned it (from high to low) E C A G E C. ( C6 tuning) My other non-pedals are 8 strings and are tuned (from high to low) G E C A G E C A. (Also C6 tuning)

I’m interested in opinions and what others have done and why.

Is it better to tune the six string without the “G” on top and adapt, or keep the tuning the same as the 8 string with the “G” on top and drop the low C and A?

I don’t want to unlearn what I have already learned. Thoughts????
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Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

I have an E on top irregardless of whether I'm playing a 6 string or an 8 string guitar.

Jerome Hawkes · From: Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA

imo, i think learning on the standard C>E tuning is optimal, mainly due to this type of confusion. even though i play 8 string & sub a D for the high G, i always try to work mentally as if i only have 6 strings. those other 2 stings are "extensions" to the tuning. that way, when i take my Ric bakelite B-6 out, i'm not fumbling around. i'd say 95%+ of what you do is E>E anyway.

the choice is really up to you based on what you play. i tried the G on top and it was nice for chord inversions, but i didnt use it enough to give up something else - same with the low A, i just didnt use it as much as i thought, so i subed the high D (on 1st string like the pedal steelers do) as that seemed to be the weak link in the std C6 tuning.
but i think i saw where cindy cashdollar tunes her 6 string E>G, so she knows that works for her. for western swing comping, that extra inversion of the major comes in real handy.

if you dont try to "position play" and start thinking intervals, it really doesnt matter what the tuning is - thats what you want to strive for.
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Doug Beaumier · From: Northampton, MA

Edward Meisse · From: Santa Rosa, California, USA

Jerome and Doug have covered your options nicely. There's not much else to say.
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Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

I use JERRY's early day tuning:

top to bottom: E C A G E C#

or: E C A G E C# C

It provides a lot more, melody possibilities, IMHO.

If you care to check it out, visit the
JERRY BYRD - FAN CLUB.com/

Give a listen to JERRY's music.

Mack Quinney · From: Texas, USA

Thank you for the responses.

Jerome,
It's interesting you bring up Cindy Cashdollar. Her instructional video is where I started (probably why I like that G on top). She does in fact have a G as her top string. Most of what I am trying to play is Western Swing, however, I'm still not convinced I need that G on top for the 6 string. I do know from experiment, that I do not like the D on top. Too much for my brain to think about. I like that nice triad in the tuning.

Doug,
I think I am headed where both you and Jerome are going. I like the G on top on the 8 string, but I use it mostly in melody lines. My chords are mostly from E down. Most tabs and instruction for 6 string tends to place an E on the top string. When playing the melody I can find the 5th tone in the scale by simply remembering that it is three frets up. What I tend to have problems with is orientation to the number of strings. I have the same issue with the 10 strings on the pedal steel. I get lost in the strings as it were.

For example, if I go to grab a C chord with E C G ( top to bottom with G being the low tone and skipping that A in the grip), I relate that to strings 2,3 and 5 on the 8 string, and now have to relate that to strings 1,2 and 4 on the six string. Just mental practice I guess.

The way I am trying to look at it, with only six strings, is how Jerome explained it. C6 with E on top is the basic and the G as an extension. This though process tends to work better than string number related to tuning. I also like what Jerome said about “thinking intervals”. I find myself thinking about the note I am wanting to hit and how that relates to one of the notes I have ringing from my present position. Where is that note on the scale relative to my current position. In other words I am starting to work on the note location on the fretboard, and how that note relates to what I want to hear.

Ray,
I’ve checked out the Jerry Byrd site. I have tried the C# in the tuning, but more from a Kayton Roberts type tuning. I believe his is (from top to bottom) E, C, A, F#, E, C# A, A. I might try the C# a little later.

Again thanks for the info. Probably best to experiment and see what works for me. :0)

I’m still interested in what others have to say….

Mack
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76 Emmons Push Pull, Williams 600, ShoBud Pro I, MSA Classic, Remington SteelMaster dbl 8, MSA Super Slide dbl 8, Gold Tone 6, And other instruments and equipment I can't afford.

Steve Ahola · From: Concord, California

I was going to start a topic titled "C6th vs E13th tunings" (not that there is an actual conflict between the two.) Well, I went ahead did start that topic so I thought I better shrink the reply I just posted here:

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=1972852#1972852

I think that a majority (or at least a plurality) of the people here would vote for C6 [E-C-A-G-E-C h-l] as being the most useful tuning for a 6 string lap steel. (Some people might tune the low C up to C# on occasion or all of the time.)

However when going from 6 string to 8 string I have come to believe that the most useful choice is E13th [G#-E-C#-B-G#-E-D-B h-l] "Wait a minute- I only play C6th!" Not really a problem because the top 6 strings of the E13th tuning have the exact same intervals as the 6 string C6. And you can retune the 7th string from D to C# to get the exact same intervals of a very popular 8 string C6th tuning [E-C-A-G-E-C-A-G h-l].

So why not just raise the low A to Bb in the 8 string C6th tuning? That would give you a C13th tuning with the same intervals as the E13th I recommend [E-C-A-G-E-C-Bb-G h-l]. That works well too but I prefer the "high lonesome sound" with the E13th tuning being 4 frets higher in pitch.

C6th with the G on top will give you the higher pitch and is a good tuning, but I think that the E13th is a more natural extension of the 6 string C6 tuning since the intervals of the top 6 strings are identical.

Just my two cents...

Steve Ahola

P.S. On second thought I decided to go ahead and start the "C6th vs E13th tunings" topic...
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Jerome Hawkes · From: Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA

mack - you've got the idea right.
look, i struggle/ed with this like everyone else - i would strongly recommend, even 10 string pedal players, to approach the C6 as a core 6 string tuning comprising of strings C>E. then you can fill in or extend the tuning as needed. and each player will find their own system eventually.

i can see the western swing players needing that 5th on top. if i'm in that situation on a 6 string, i will tune to A6...
which brings up another point....
here is one somewhat overlooked benefit of tuning the 6 string C>E - you can easily get to about 6+ other tunings right from that. that may seem way far off to someone still struggling to grasp 1 main tuning, but it doesnt take long to see its vast potential. when i started transcribing some old tunes, i had NO IDEA what the tunings used were - you just dont know - are they A6, C6, E7, B11, E13, Amaj, E9...etc. after a few dozen frustrating attempts, you start to hear the flavor of the tuning and with the C>E core string gauges, you can get most of the golden era tunings right on the fly.
early stuff in the maj tunings E/A are not going to follow this rule however.
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Mack Quinney · From: Texas, USA

Steve,
I have E13 on the other neck of my double neck. I use for some Hank Williams stuff I learned off of tab, but that is about it. I just haven't spent as much time with that tuning.

I want to learn how to improvise, and play solos on the C6 neck like I can on the E9th pedal steel. I keep C6 on the back neck of the pedal steel, so I hope that I am helping my playing on the C6 neck of the pedal steel by learning the non-pedal in C6 tuning. (Also, non-pedal is fun!)

What I am finding is I am actually learning where the notes are on the fretboard. I'm a piano player, so this makes more sense to me. By removing the G top string, I am forced to find the location of the note I was playing on the G string, on the E string or elsewhere. This again is a good learning exercise because I am expanding my knowledge of the fretboard and note location.

Mack
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76 Emmons Push Pull, Williams 600, ShoBud Pro I, MSA Classic, Remington SteelMaster dbl 8, MSA Super Slide dbl 8, Gold Tone 6, And other instruments and equipment I can't afford.

Tim Fowler · From: Kentucky, USA

I'm a long time Jazz guitar guy who is new-ish to steel. I like the C6 as the core tuning. I am using the A7/C6 Jerry Byrd Tuning (H-L) E-C-A-G-E-C#-C-A. I like that I can get a bench of dominant chords and substitutes(every 3 frets)and that a lot of good major, minor and pentatonic patterns can be had. I fear more steels are needed to play in more tunings. I need to hang with Al Collinsworth more!

Dan Simard · From: Quebec, Canada

Dennis Coelho · From: Wyoming, USA

Like most of us, I've been experimenting with these tunings for a few years. I started with Reece's 12 string extended C, but I really don't play much of the jazz music it was designed for. I went back to six, then eight, and now back up to ten. I'm using Byrd's with the added C# but also with G and then B on the top. The B is tuned one step above the top C, as with Reece. This gives me three minors within two frets, minor 2nd, minor 3rd and minor 6th. I play a lot of Ian Tyson stuff and a lot of folky type CW, all with lots of minors. It works for me.

But I have come to love that added C# which gives me essentially a whole other instrument based a sixth below the C tuning on each fret. The A7th adds a blues and boogie access right there in front of you. With the slants it just opens up the instrument. Feels like coming home.

If you think of that A (7) chord as your root, then the movement to the IV is just two frets up and the V just two more. I can easily see how some one playing this set-up would think of how pedals A&B on a PSG should give you the IV.

This is also making me think about trying PSG again, but inverting the usual usage by starting with A&B pedals down for the root chord based on the A6.

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