Adjusting monitor levels

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Looking for how your band handles adjusting monitor levels. I the 2 major bands I play with, this is the order in which they adjust the various levels (instruments, monitors and FOH). The first thing they do is get the monitors up real loud to where they think they need to be. Of course, the band now thinks this is the level in which their instruments need to be. It is the only sound we have to reference to. So now we have screaming monitors and a band that is too loud on stage. Last, they adjust the mains. Many times the mains are over worked and muddy, other times they are barely heard.

When I was younger, I used to run sound for a Grateful Dead copy band. Exact same musician make-up including 2 drummers. Huge Altec mixing board, stereo FOH and 2 on stage monitor busses. They hired a pro soundman to teach us how to run the setup. What he taught us was:

1. Get the FOH to the level needed for the venue.
2. Get instruments dialed in, whether they are mic'd or un-mic'd. The levels need to be balanced to the vocals in the FOH mix.
3. Lastly, you adjust the onstage monitors. He said you do it this way because you don't want the instruments to use this as the standard they need to use for their instrument volume. The instrument levels were already set to the FOH levels.

So, what happens to me now is, I sit between the guitar players monitor and the main on the right side of the stage, both very close to me in some venues. It sounds like I have a pair of headphones on and at times, I can barely hear my amp that is only a couple of feet behind me and on a stand, so it is aimed at my head. When I can, I try to sit way back, in the same plane as the drummer to get away from the monitors. I don't sing so I don't really need to hear the monitors. The only reason would be to know where in the song we were, but I have played the songs so many times, I could probably be deaf and still play them.

Also, the one band, the leader is the guy doing the PA setup. He is almost deaf in one ear (one of the reasons the monitors are so loud). Instead of using the ears to set levels, he thinks visual cue using the knobs is the way to go. Example: They all use SM58 mic's, so the gains and EQ should be the same for all. But at those settings, some singer's mic's are too low. He says "they're all set to the same numbers on the board, they're all at 7 o'clock - or something to that effect. First, not all singers sing at he same volume. Then, you have older dying mic's as opposed to newer mic's - wouldn't you think that maybe the signal leaves might be a tad different? And quality of the cables?

Am I all wet on this?

So, how do you guys set up your sound systems?
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Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

The world is so full of idiots who consider themselves to be experts, and this is no more evident than in the field of sound reinforcement.

There are many fine books available on this subject and I recommenD that you get your hands on onE or two and study up. The bottom line is that if the band is good - i.e. the musicians pay attention to each other, play with dynamics and leave room for each other to play in - you should have none of these problems. It is only when you are surrounded by jokers who think their job is to play every note they know as loud as they can at every moment in time that hearing onstage becomes an issue.

If you are in a large enough venue to warrant mics on the drums and amps you will want to dial in the input gain for each of these mics first thing, using the "solo" or "PFL" system on the mixer. You are not setting mix levels at this point but simply channel input sensitivities. Then dial in the input gain for the vocalists - there is a wide variance in the level of power delivered from singer to singer, so you can't just set all the numbers the same and expect to get a good result, that's why there is an input gain adjustment in the first place! Once you have equal sensitivity across the board you can then set the channel faders to reflect e priorities of your mix, at this point setting things up by the numbers IS a good idea, as the individual channels are now fairly equal in output level within the mixer and can be mixed intelligently.

There is way too much to this science to fully teach in this forum. but again I say:

IF THE MUSICANS ON STAGE LISTEN TO EACH OTHER AND LEAVE SPACE FOR EACH OTHER TO PLAY IN YOU WON'T NEED MUCH FROM THE MONITORS, BUT IF THE BAND MEMBERS DO NOT PLAY WITH DYNAMICS AND LEAVE ROOM FOR EACH OTHER YOU CANNOT WIN NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO. Period.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I think the order in which you do things may depend on PA system particulars, venue, style of music, and other variables. If I was dealing with a high quality PA system with lots of headroom for FOH and monitor mixes above the proper instrument levels (which vary by style, a rock gig is not necessarily the same as an old-school country/folk/jazz/blues gig), I would approach it the way your sound pro taught you - FOH first (instrument levels need to be brought in to blend with vocals), then vocal monitors, then any other monitors if needed - e.g., acoustic guitar. Of course, it may take a few rounds of this to get things in-balance. The other thing I'd argue is that if you're sound-checking in an empty room, as you would do if you're setting things up well before the audience arrives, you need to remember that you may need to build in some headroom and be willing to make adjustments after the room is full. First, if you're in an enclosed room, a large audience absorbs sound and changes the acoustical properties of the room; and second, if it's not a quiet sit-down listening audience, they may add a lot of ambient noise that needs to be overcome.

But another point is that PAs are not created equal. For example, especially when playing a smaller gig or with a band bringing their own smaller PA, the PA may be fairly under-powered, and many times I see inadequate clean/crisp monitor capability. I have played gigs where it is a challenge to get the vocal monitors up enough to hear well even over proper-volume instruments. In this case it may make sense to set the vocal monitors first so you can perhaps pull the instrument volumes down enough so you can hear the vocals onstage, and then mic the instruments to carry to FOH. My attitude is that if your vocal monitors are under-powered, the correct solution is to turn the instruments down, but this sometimes meets with resistance.

Of course, this varies by style. If you have players with a rock and roll ethos of rigidly fixing instrument volumes loud to get the sound/feel they're looking for, then getting the vocal monitors above the instrument stage volume may be a challenge. Guitar players often do this to push their tube amps to get the sound they're looking for, but they often bring too-large amps. The correct solution (IMO) is to bring the proper-size amp that gives the correct sound at the correct stage volume, but this often falls on deaf ears. If you're dealing with a guitar player who owns one amp - e.g., a silverface Twin Reverb or large Marshall stack with a pile of 'loud vs. louder' pedals - good luck.

The other thing is drums. Drums often set the stage volume, and if the drummer always hits hard and/or you have a sound tech who insists on cranking the drums through the FOH, regardless of what the music calls for, it screws everything up. I deal with this a lot, and it's hard to make everything else work if the drums are overpowering the mix. Again, this isn't always the drummer's fault - I work with one drummer who plays relaxed and quiet, but sound techs often crank the kick to get what they deem a 'proper' drum sound.

To me, the real issue is that if the band and whomever is doing sound all have good ears and are sensitive to trying to keep stage volume at a proper level, vocals properly above the instruments, and FOH sounding right for the style of music, you can probably work it out. If that isn't the case or people have radically differing values about what sounds 'right', cacophony frequently ensues regardless of methodology.

Just saw Dave G.'s post - of course, preamp sensitivities should be equalized using the trim adjustments. If the sound tech doesn't know to do this, there's not much hope. Another amateur-hour habit is to deal with every feedback problem by cranking down the respective band on a graphic EQ. If they're trying to crank up the PA pretty well, they'll often just keep getting feedback in different bands, and ultimately wind up with the entire EQ just pulled down across-the-board. Every gig should start with a flat EQ (0 dB across-the-board) on both main and monitor mixes, and at the end, the average ending level should be around 0 dB. One should use as little EQ as possible, but if there are significant resonances that need to be pulled down on some bands, it is a good habit to balance this by raising weak bands a bit instead so you're not choking the overall signal.

Ryan Quinn · From: Northampton, MA

I've done some work on both sides of the FOH board, and I add the monitors last*. If you don't have rough levels on instruments and FOH, there's no way of knowing what you need in the monitors. Much better IMHO to only add in what band members need at the end to keep the stage volume reasonable. At monitor mix time, it may make more sense to reposition or adjust amp volumes slightly, but only one at a time to avoid "volume inflation".

And here's some unsolicited editorializing: most bands I see have stage volumes that are way too loud.

*It probably goes without saying, but I always ring out the monitors before the band is on stage to avoid the danger of blasting them with feedback during the process.

edit: Just saw Dave's post. My answer addresses house PA's that are up to the task of handling a couple monitor mixes with plenty of power. I hadn't considered the variability in PA systems, but agree with his assessment.
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Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

Richard: If you play the Saddlerack in Fremont, be forewarned: Mike the soundman will set monitor volumes first. In fact, I don't think he will even turn on the mains for sound-check.

Also, he will want you to set your amp really low volume. You will have your own monitor so it's a good idea to put some steel into your monitor, so you can hear yourself.

PS: Steve from Saddleback Ridge will be contacting you about playing the Rack on August 4th. I suggested he give you a call.

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

i can't say too little about most soundmen.

exception: the guy at marilyn's who has really good kush.

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

More clarification. The band is a very professional bunch of guys. Dynamics and not playing over each other is not the problem. The problem is that they get the monitors up so loud, the band just naturally sets their volume to match what vocals they can hear. If you can't hear the mains, you can't set the instrument volume to them. While they are really good musicians, they are not very good at setting their PA systems. The system in one band is a Yamama 8 channel powered mixer into 2 JBL mains with a 12" and a horn, or sometimes the 2 Yamaha cabinets with a 15 and a horn. The monitors for the bass player, guitar player, and drummer are powered JBL monitors with a 10" and a horn. At times the monitors are louder than the mains.

The other band has a really good but loud bass player. So, everything gets adjusted to his level. He won't turn down and it's his band so we can't really fire him, plus he adds to much to the "sound" of the band. We just live with the fact that it is a loud band.

The first band is the one I have issues with though. We run the guitar and steel through at least the monitors so the drummer and bass player can hear them (duh, maybe turning down the stage volume would allow you to hear them). We even have them go through the mains a little to help balance the sound on each side of the room. You know, the audience on the side of the hall opposite to where you are on stage can seldom hear you unless you turn WAY up. Then, you kill the people on your side. Problem is, saying things doesn't help. Every other musician seems to know more than a steel player. Mad

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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Thanks Paul. I have 2 gigs that day, so I put them in touch with Steve French and he will do the gig. Thanks for the referral though and hope they remember me if they need someone in the future. Funny thing, I would rather play their gig than the 2 I have for that day. Oh well, maybe another time.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Richard - on the first band with the Yamaha powered mixer. That's the type of situation I'm talking about - a single powered mixer handling both fronts and monitors, and you're doing sound yourselves, right? Maybe a few hundred watts RMS for for fronts, maybe 100 watts RMS per 10" powered monitor, 3 monitors, right? Not a lot of power - used correctly may be OK for a small club, but probably doesn't give a lot of headroom if things start getting busy or loud.

This is where I might well start out with the vocal monitors, ring them out at the highest volume I can reasonably get away with, then back them down to where they're comfortable, sound good, and have some headroom. Now figure out where the instrument volumes should be - again, turn them down if necessary. Then turn the monitors off, work to get FOH where it should be with vocals and instruments, then blend the monitors back in - but only to the volume needed. This may take a few rounds - if the monitors are pushed they'll interact with the fronts. If things get louder during the gig (more people come in, make noise, absorb sound), I'd maybe go out and make some adjustments to fronts if needed, and then blend the monitors up a bit if needed. But I'd never start a gig with things cranked up as loud as I could get.

My take - with a system like this on a club gig, nobody (except possibly the drummer) should need anything but vocals and acoustic instruments in the monitor. I don't think small systems like this can handle much more than that. If everyone needs everything in the mix, the stage volume is way too loud, unless you're a hard rock band and that's just part of the ethos - it's a loud blaring rock band. The other problem is that if monitors are set real loud, electric instruments and especially the bass and drums tend to bleed in, and that just creates a mess. I deal with this way too frequently, it's a drag. But not if I'm running sound. I ask people to let me run sound, but a lot of places we play now have their own system and a sound tech.

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Thanks Dave. We don't really play any place that needs a larger PA. In fact, one place I play, we only use 1 main speaker and the monitors being as loud as they are, provide sound for the crowd too. The reason for running the guitar and steel through the monitors is so the drummer and bass player can hear them for enjoyment, not necessarily because it is too loud to hear them otherwise, soley for their enjoyment. The bass player being deaf in one ear (the ear pointing away from the rest of the band) and the drummer is usually behind the line where our amps are, so they don't hear any highs. They are not loud in the monitors. It's the damn voices that end having me leave at the end of the night with a headache. Earplugs and I don't mix well either. Can't stand them and I get ear infections pretty easy. Had a job for years that I was required to wear them and was always getting impacted or infected ears.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

Bigtime musicians always wear a leather flight jacket or similar garment that they can easily throw across a monitor wedge to control volume and/or high frequency balance Very Happy

I didn't make this up, it's what professionals really do....

Bill Terry · From: Bastrop, TX

I always tell the sound guy on contracted sound gigs I don't want a monitor, for most of the reasons above. I figure I've got better than even odds that if I have a monitor, whatever I get will be too loud, and not what I'd prefer to hear anyway.

There are a couple of exceptions, the guys at LD Systems who do the San Antonio Rodeo every year are real pros, AND they really treat the musicians with respect, even us lowly opening act guys.
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