Carter Changer Problem? UPDATE

Chris Johnson · From: USA

Hey Forumites,

Over the past 3 days, I have toiled over a problem on my Carter with my 7th string E which is lowered to Eb and D (no raises on string). I first noticed when the string lowered, it did not raise all the way to pitch unless I physically pushed the lower spring back into position.

I then proceeded with the trouble-shooting process we all know and love. I've changed the string (multiple times in case of bad batch), de-tuned the string, un-tuned both lower nylons, countless adjustments between "stops" and pull rod positions, lubed (although guitar is maintained regularly), checked for pull rod obstructions, swapped springs, etc.

Then Saturday upon close inspection with a led light, I discovered a irregularity in the 7th string changer scissor which I pointed out in my pictures. BTW, these pics were taken with nothing engaged, nylons backed off and string slacked.

I'm pretty proficient in setting up steel guitars as I have done my fair share in the Soflo area but this one has me stumped. I believe I have a changer problem but I want some input from you guys before I jump the gun and take the major surgery route. I need your help with this one.

Thanks for all your help,
Chris Johnson

Bob Tuttle · From: Republic, MO 65738

It sounds like something is binding the changer finger. Could be a ball-end off of a string, or something bent on the finger itself. I'm assuming you keep it lubed properly.

Joe Smith · From: Charlotte, NC, USA

I agree with Bob. I also have a Carter steel and I have had broken string balls get stuck in the changer quit a few times.
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Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I would expect the problem might be over-tuning on one of the changes (no slack), or a lowering spring that's not strong enough to return solidly.

However, to eliminate the possibility of an internal changer issue causing the problem, examine things methodically:

Remove the offending string, and the one next to it (on either side, it makes no difference). Now, remove the lowering springs and the pull rods on the offending string, and the one next to it. Now move both changer fingers with your finger...feel any difference? (They should flop back and forth very freely.) Make sure the raise and lowers feel the same when moved individually, and also when moved together. If they feel the same, and move the same, then there is no binding or blockage in the changer.

However, if there is a significant difference in the way the two fingers feel or move, and lubrication doesn't correct it, a changer removal and examination is required.

Chris Johnson · From: USA

Thanks for the help guys,

I've checked for any ball ends or debris that could hinder movement and performed Donny's advice during the infamous trouble-shooting method. Everything is moving freely, just the 7th string finger not returning to the proper starting place which I believe is preventing the spring from returning the string to the proper pitch.

Anyone else ever seen anything like this?
Are all-pull changers known to fail in this way although properly maintained?

Thanks

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Re-examine the return spring tension. It's that spring that returns the changer finger to it's original position. If it's not tight enough, it won't come all the way back to the changer stop.

I don't know if Carters have a screw to tighten it or you have to cut a coil or 2 off of it.

If you can push it back to where it belongs with your finger pretty easily, then I would suspect that is your problem.
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Bob Tuttle · From: Republic, MO 65738

If you have changed string gauges it will make a difference. Also, the return spring could have weakened. try switching springs with one that is not lowering before you start cutting coils off.

Chris Johnson · From: USA

Thanks,

I've changed the string numerous times and switched springs with my 6th string which only raises and it's still not pulling back to pitch.

I'm going to attempt cutting the spring sometime tomorrow although Al Brisco tells me its kind of tricky and a last resort before pulling the changer out.

Any more possible solutions?

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

You can avoid cutting the spring by just using something like a big staple and insert it at the end of the spring to block off about 6 or 7 turns. This makes the spring stronger. wish I had a way of inserting a picture of what I mean but am at work and cant do that on this computer.
Just take a flat type staple, stick one end into end of spring and up thru about 6 or 7 turns back. Then bend staple over at both ends so it will stay and block off part of spring. I've done this several times till I could get new spring in to fix the problem. That is what your problem sounds like to me, a weak spring. Also try what Bob Tuttle suggested, that is alos a quick and easy fix if it is weak spring.
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Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Chris Johnson · From: USA

Thanks Henry,

I've tried your staple method but still no fix.

I've ruled out the spring as the problem as I have switched the spring with other springs to end with the same result.

I'm starting to think something is internally lodged in the 7th string scissor that may not be seen without extraction or a malfunction of the changer itself Crying or Very sad

.....but the "lodged" theory wouldn't explain why the finger's starting position is hyper-extended as if lowering (shown in pictures) although everything is backed off.

Any more suggestions?

Chris Johnson · From: USA

That's exactly how the spring is behaving but I have switched springs to no avail.

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

Got me stumped without just taking changer apart. Don't know how Carter's are put together but I had an Emmons LeGrand that a changer looked just like your pictures. The problem with it was the changer stop had a groove worn in it and the changer was slipping into groove making it look just like your pics. It was one of the first guitars I ever had and being a beginner then, I was always letting my foot slip off pedal whammiing it against the stop and made a deep groove. That was in the early 80's.

You've got something going on with changer and looks like you are in for a tear down. Hope not, hope you find a simple fix.
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Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Chris Johnson · From: USA

In desperation, I've tried pulling the suspected problem spot with a small screwdriver to the point where all the fingers are uniform. In doing that, I found that the roller bridge became uniform as well leading me to suspect this is the problem spot.

Some pics for clarification:
Before

After pulling piece with screwdriver

Things seem to be getting worse Crying or Very sad

Bob Cox · From: Buckeye State

Check this out, Is the pull working off a cross shaft pulling or lowering another string besides the 7. If so that other pull is coming back to soon and holding the return of 7 too preventing a full release of number 7 . If this is the case add some slack in the other pull or lower and you will be back in business. An easy way to diagnose it would be using a set of my pedal steel set up stands pictured below so you can watch every thing work on your bench and not flip it back and forth. Its alot easier to tell whats hanging up Hope this may help you.

Chris Johnson · From: USA

Thanks but I wish I were that simple Bob,

The other lower on that string (E-Eb) is completely backed off. The problem is the area circled in red on my pictures...

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

I think you're gonna have to dismantle the guitar
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Jerry Roller · From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA

I can't see enough it the photos and don't have a Carter changer here with me to look at but if it is designed anything like an Emmons changer it is possible for the raise finger to get out of position and be on the backside of the lowering finger "trigger" (edit/ I think Billy's use of the word claw is better than trigger). Does it look like the changer roller has shifted back? If it has the area where you insert the string into the changer finger would be back against the back of the changer. Sorry I can't see enough in the photos to tell. This may or may not be possible on a Carter changer. If this is the problem you probably need to loosen the string and unhook the lower return spring and manipulate the changer fingers to get the top one (raise finger) in front of the lowering finger. Sort of a guess but I think that is what has happened.
Jerry

Billy Carr · From: Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)

Could the changer finger "claw" be rubbing against the changer housing. I'd remove the changer and take it apart. Very simple and easy to do. That way you can move every finger and look for the problem. Start by removing the strings(after you remove the pull rods). Next remove the adjustment springs on the fingers. If I remember right, you'll need a phillips head screwdriver and the correct allen wrench. Good luck.

Aaron Goldstein · From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

This is a Q for Al Brisco. steelcan@steelguitarcanada.com
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Mickey Adams · From: Bandera Texas

Wanna tear it down?....I can help you with that...It looks to me like the connecting fastener between the scissors may have come loose...
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Mickey Adams · From: Bandera Texas

Wanna tear it down?....I can help you with that...It looks to me like the connecting fastener between the scissors may have come loose...
_________________
ARTIST RELATIONS: MSA GUITARS
2017 MSA LEGEND XL D10, S10, Studio Pro S12 EXE9
Mullen G2, Rittenberry S10, Infinity D10, Zumsteel 8+9
Anderson, Buscarino, Fender, Roman Guitars, Sarno Octal, Revelation Preamps, BJS BARS, Lots of Blackface Fenders!

Chris Johnson · From: USA

Thanks for all the support guys,

After a few calls with Al Brisco, we've isolated the problem to something funky going on in the 7th string scissor. He has shipped me a new scissor and aluminum finger to be on the safe side. We both thought it could have been the problem Jerry mentioned but the solutions did not fix the problem.

Thanks for the help again. If anything else comes up, I'll let you know.

Bent Romnes · From: London,Ontario, Canada

Chris, Interesting reading..something to learn from. Keep us posted and let us know exactly what the problem was. Thanks!
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Don Brown, Sr. · From: New Jersey

Chris,

I'm missing something here. You said in your opening post, that it was the 7th string E. Your 7th string should be an F# open, and not an E. That's probably the reason why you have to push the finger back by hand. The 8th string is an E.

Again, the 7th string, is NOT tuned to E. So for the gauge of string used on the 7th, tuned down to open E, it does NOT have the string pulling tight enough to overcome the return spring, after lowering to Eb.

I'm thinking you better tune it up to pitch (F#) first before you do anything else, and you'll probaby find it works fine.

Again, unless I'm missing something in the writing, because nobody else has picked up on that?????? I'm surprised, that nobody has?????

Good Luck
Don

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

Don, you are genius, I sure didn't pick up on that. Couldn't see the Forrest for the trees, lol
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Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

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