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Topic: Ideas for best tone with low volumn |
Mack Quinney
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 16 Apr 2012 8:28 am |
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This will probably sound funny, but here goes.
The group I play with, practices in a rather small room, and we have to watch our volume. Problem is when I cut the volume on my amp; my tone goes in the toilet. (Sounds very tinty with no warmth at all, even with treble cut back, and bass boosted on the EQ.)
I'm playing through a Goodrich 120 VP, direct into a Peavey Nashville 112. I set the pre-gain on about 1.5 to 2, and post gain almost all the way open. I ride pretty low on the volume pedal at that.
If I turn up the amp, then the guitar player turns up, then the drummer starts playing loud, and then the race is on.....
Thoughts are appreciated.
Thanks
Mack
_________________
76 Emmons Push Pull, Williams 600, ShoBud Pro I, MSA Classic, Remington SteelMaster dbl 8, MSA Super Slide dbl 8, Gold Tone 6, And other instruments and equipment I can't afford. |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 16 Apr 2012 9:03 am
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| Turn the pre gain up to 5 0r 6 and lower the post gain to the appropriate output level. With the preamp set so low you are mostly amplifying noise on the post side.... |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 16 Apr 2012 10:29 am
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Ditto on the "raise the preamp level, lower the Master" approach. The 1-12 was designed for low- volume home and practice use, they just apparently accidentally hit it out of the park for a small stage amp. I had no problem getting a fat tone out of mine at low volume.
_________________
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com |
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Jerry Van Hoose
From:
Wears Valley, Tennessee
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Posted 16 Apr 2012 4:20 pm
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| Agreed, raise the pre amp level & lower the master. You mentioned, Goodrich 120 direct into the Peavey Nashville 112.....are you using the suggested "3 cable hookup"? Using a pot pedal into this amp will get you about a 150 ohm load, whereas the 3 cable hookup will raise it to 220 ohms.....every little bit helps. |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 17 Apr 2012 5:41 am
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| Pedals with potentiometers work by changing resistance and hence the voltage that the amplifier sees. Consequently the tone changes. A pedal like the Telonics Multi-taper basically delivers to the amp what leaves the guitar and most any stomp box placed before the volume pedal will do the same. |
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Mack Quinney
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 17 Apr 2012 7:05 am
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Thanks for all of the info.
I can certainly adjust the amp settings (Pre and Post Gain). I am not familiar with the "3 cable hookup" that Jerry is referring too. Jerry, want to elaborate?
Jim, I have a Goodrich laser VP, (don't remember the model number) would that do the same as the Telonics?
Thanks again for the help.
Mack
_________________
76 Emmons Push Pull, Williams 600, ShoBud Pro I, MSA Classic, Remington SteelMaster dbl 8, MSA Super Slide dbl 8, Gold Tone 6, And other instruments and equipment I can't afford. |
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Larry Behm
From:
Mt Angel, Or 97362
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Posted 17 Apr 2012 7:47 am
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Don't use a volume pedal, just plug your guitar into the N112 add a little verb and go for it.
Larry Behm
_________________
'70 D10 Black fatback Emmons PP, Hilton VP, BJS bars, Boss GE-7 for Dobro effect, Zoom MS50G, Stereo Steel amp, Telonics 15” speaker.
Phone: 971-219-8533 |
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Chas. J. Wagner
From:
Denver, Colorado USA
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Mack Quinney
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 17 Apr 2012 9:24 am
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Chas,
Got it. I have a session 500 which I do hook up the VP that way. I didn't realize that the NV 112 had the same thing.
Cool.
Thanks, I'll give it a try.
Mack
_________________
76 Emmons Push Pull, Williams 600, ShoBud Pro I, MSA Classic, Remington SteelMaster dbl 8, MSA Super Slide dbl 8, Gold Tone 6, And other instruments and equipment I can't afford. |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 17 Apr 2012 9:25 am
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Hi Mack. I've not measured the voltage from the Goodrich LDR (light dependent resistor) pedal) however I am assuming (and you know what that means  ) that it would do about the same thing as it has a built-in impedance matching transformer in it allowing the user to adjust the tone. One thing that has not been discussed is the "Fletcher-Munson Curve" that basically says that as volume is increased the aural perception of the frequencies also changes. That is- as the volume is increased we hear an increase in the high and low frequencies and perhaps this is part of what you are hearing as a change in tone as the volume pedal changes. |
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Mack Quinney
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 17 Apr 2012 9:49 am
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Jim,
Thanks. What I hear is the highs like you are trying to squeeze it through a staw. (Best I can describe it. Midrang is muddled, and no lows at all) Thats why I have the EQ with the highs turned way down and the bass almost all the way up. At this low volumn, I don't get much low in.
I was taught (right or wrong) to open up the post gain and use the pre-gain to control your volumn. As I recall this was to allow head room, and to reduce any distortion. This works fine when I set the pre-gain around 5 or so and open up the post gain. I get a really nice sound at that volumn.
Looking at the Peavey recommended settings, the post gain is set just past 5 with the pre just before 5. So I am assuming as long as the post gain is set higher than the pre gain I should be ok?
I'll also try the 3 cable hook up and posibily the Light VP. I've used the 3 cable hook up with the Session 500 and it works very well at low volumn.
Thanks again.
Mack
_________________
76 Emmons Push Pull, Williams 600, ShoBud Pro I, MSA Classic, Remington SteelMaster dbl 8, MSA Super Slide dbl 8, Gold Tone 6, And other instruments and equipment I can't afford. |
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Mack Quinney
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 17 Apr 2012 9:53 am
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Ok, so I should go back to grade school and learn how to spell volume. ha ha
_________________
76 Emmons Push Pull, Williams 600, ShoBud Pro I, MSA Classic, Remington SteelMaster dbl 8, MSA Super Slide dbl 8, Gold Tone 6, And other instruments and equipment I can't afford. |
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Jerry Van Hoose
From:
Wears Valley, Tennessee
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Posted 17 Apr 2012 10:58 am
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| Chas, thanks for posting the link. I wasn't monitoring the thread as closely as I should have been regarding a follow up reply. Mack, I suggested the 3 cable volume pedal hookup given the equipment & setup you were using during your bands practice session. Jim P. has given you excellent info too regarding active pedals, all of which I adhere to. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 17 Apr 2012 11:09 am
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I try, on every amp I run, to keep the pre no higher than 4 or 5, and set the master to control the output. As you've discovered, below 2 and the tone degrades. Above 5 and I find that strongly hit dissonant chords, like 6ths and 9ths, break up. I don't understand WHY tense chords eat power; I've only observed they do.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 17 Apr 2012 11:27 am
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| Quote: |
| I was taught (right or wrong) to open up the post gain and use the pre-gain to control your volumn. |
Perhaps this is how some folks drive their rigs, but I assure you that the concept of a pre-gain pad coupled with a post-processing master volume was originally intended to allow a full signal at the front end with the ability to moderate the final output volume at the amplification stage. Unless you are driving it with a line level signal, running the master wide open with the front end turned way down means that your amplifier section itself is mostly amplifying white noise generated by the preamp electronics.
Drive your front end ("pre gain") as hot as you can without clipping, then your EQ, reverb and effects loop circuits have something to work with besides background circuit noise. Once your signal is properly processed, THEN you turn the final output ("post gain") down to suit the desired volume level.
Last edited by Dave Grafe on 17 Apr 2012 12:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 17 Apr 2012 11:41 am
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The mids are what kills the fullness of the sound, especially at low volumes. Try turning the mids down very low while leaving the shift at 12 o'clock. Now boost the lows to the maximum (or nearly so), and then adjust your tone with the high control.
It's also helpful to learn to control your maximum volume with your foot pedal, and not the amp controls! Learning to master the amp settings and foot pedal are the key to sustain. IMHO, turning down the pre and post gain just chokes off the sound, and gives all succeeding amp stages less signal to work with.
Whether playing loud in a coliseum, or quietly in my living room, I always have my pre and post gains set very high.
YMMV, of course. |
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Tommy Boswell
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 17 Apr 2012 5:41 pm
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| Mack Quinney wrote: |
I was taught (right or wrong) to open up the post gain and use the pre-gain to control your volumn.
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That sounds similar to what I was taught to do with a tube amp that has a master volume control. For clean headroom, turn the master all the way up, and use channel gain to control volume. But that's for a tube amp. For what it's worth. |
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Joshua Gibson
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 17 Apr 2012 8:48 pm
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Hi Mack, I sent You a PM with an idea
Joshua S Gibson,
_________________
'83 Mullen custom D-10 8x5.
Mesa Lonestar classic 112 custom cab.
Session 400 Ltd, Nashville 1000,
Telonics, Zoom, BJS,
Goldtone BS, LITM, OS Dobros.
Fender, G&L, Gibson, Ibanez guitars. |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 17 Apr 2012 9:20 pm
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| One of the problems in setting the amp volume high- regardless of pre/post, etc- is that it effectively reduces the effective range of your volume pedal- independent of which one you are using. I have always been of the opinion that you need to set the pre-amp gain less than the amplifier gain (post) in order to avoid over-driving the amp causing distortion- most noticeable with a tube amp but still happens with a non-tube amp. |
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Mack Quinney
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 18 Apr 2012 6:22 am
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Folks, thank you for the feedback. Great information. We practice on Thursday nights, so I'm going to go in early tomorrow and work through these options and see what works best.
Joshua, got your PM. I'll look into that one as well.
I'll report out what I find for those who might be interested.
Mack
_________________
76 Emmons Push Pull, Williams 600, ShoBud Pro I, MSA Classic, Remington SteelMaster dbl 8, MSA Super Slide dbl 8, Gold Tone 6, And other instruments and equipment I can't afford. |
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Bill Bassett
From:
Papamoa New Zealand
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Posted 18 Apr 2012 7:02 am After All The Cool Tech Stuff....
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| now get yourself a Power Soak device and hook it up between the amp and the speaker. A big fat L Pad should do it. Turn the amp up as loud as you like and control the volume of the speaker itself instead. Disconnect before a gig. Simple as that. |
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Jerry Van Hoose
From:
Wears Valley, Tennessee
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Posted 18 Apr 2012 7:25 am
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Out of curiosity, I pulled my Nashville 112 w/Ken's latest chip upgrade out of the closet to see if I could get an acceptable, full-sounding tone at a low volume (something I'm not used to) using nothing else but a volume pedal. I set the pre at 3 & master at 5, using my Hilton pedal and got a wonderful full tone at low volume. Although I used my Hilton pedal, your Goodrich 120 using the 3 cable hookup or an effects device in between pedal & amp shouldn't differ very much. Now, I'll return the 112 to the closet, wouldn't want my wife to discover that I can play at anything other than stage level volume at home  . |
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Keith Hilton
From:
248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721
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Posted 18 Apr 2012 4:20 pm
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| Get a push pull guitar, that was my solution. |
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Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
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Posted 18 Apr 2012 10:28 pm Re: After All The Cool Tech Stuff....
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[quote="Bill Bassett"]now get yourself a Power Soak device and hook it up between the amp and the speaker.../quote]
+1  The THD Hot Plate works great!
Clete |
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Bobby Snell
From:
Austin, Texas
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Posted 19 Apr 2012 3:43 pm
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Respectfully, but I can't see the need for a hot plate on a SS amp. There's a usuable range on most SS power amps that is essentially consistent. A hot plate is used to get power tubes saturated. (And that practice still misses out on the sweet sound of driving a speaker into compression.)
Mr. Grafe has some good info on using solid state. Just don't overdrive the pre-amp to power-amp generally (and PSG pickups can be really strong)to avoid nasty, ear-and-speaker-damaging SS distortion. |
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