String overtones

Chuck Blake · From: West Virginia, USA

I recently changed the strings on my GFI Ultra sd10. I put the same strings on it the previous owner used.

S.I.T Emmons signature.

When I strike the 3rd string I hear a high pitch ringing overtone that resembles a tone from a pitch tuning fork also the 4th has similar overtone, just not as pronounced. It is more sharp than the string tone and has a very strong sustain over the string tone.

I never heard it prior to the string change.

I tried a different amp, same result.

Ideas?

Thanks, Chuck

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

If the overtone has a "zing" to it, try moving the string a titch to one side or the other. You may have either a burr or groove in the top of the finger. I use those strings occasionally, and have only once had that, and it was a burr.
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Chuck Blake · From: West Virginia, USA

Lane I checked, couldn't find any burrs.

Changed 3rd string, I still hear the tone. Crying or Very sad

I'm gonna try to get in touch with my friend, Greg Jones to take a listen. Smile

Any other suggestions?

Thanks Lane

Marco Schouten · From: Amsterdam, The Netherlands

it may be the roller. You can try turning it a little or put a drop of oil between it.
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Jim Priebe · From: Queensland, Australia - R.I.P.

Chuck
I too have a GFI Ultra only it is a S10. It came with SIT strings as standard as well
as a GFI lll pickup ( very treble accented) which I changed for an Alumitone. It may be the
nature of the guitar's design that produces the overtones as I find them there to a small
degree with new strings (I use Bobbe's Cobra Coils now) however as the strings age at about
3 months they get bad and the overtones get harsh. I usually change more often that that.
Those overtones sound great on recorded slow sustaining melodies when the strings are new
but when they get slightly harsh it's change strings time (I've never broken a string on it).
I guess you could call it a zing when it's bad but it's not rollers as keyless GFI's just
have a metal nut no rollers as the string barely move on the nut. If we could magnify the
defective string I think there would be stretch marks (shock horror!) along them rather than
burrs and I am fairly confident that sometimes new strings have these - that's why every now
and then we strike a dud (new) string or even a batch of them.
If you feed the signal through an oscilloscope the overtones are visible.
All guitars do to an extent and different ones all have their own tendency of shape (that's
one of the reasons Strats sound like Strats etc. etc.) just as the decay (sustain from start
of note to end). Strats and Tele's have a fast initial decay followed by a long sustain
whereas my Les paul just decays in a fairly flat curve with low overtones (undertones?).
So I feel it is partly the nature of the beast and the amp/speaker combination is a large part
of how it sounds to your ears. My old (Aussie) JEM which is pretty much a Sho Bud type of steel
produces none and has pretty average sustain - and it's the one with the fancy maple wood body !!!
Incidentally the strings you described are the same ones on my GFI however on the upside these
Guitars (GFI) also produce those great tones high on the fretboard on the low strings (like on a George
Jones record with Sonny Curtis) so the over/undertones are really only noticed (in the negative)
when the ears don't like that sound and tone and sound is such a personal thing I guess.
I sure hope you find the best combination and get on top of the (seen) problem in the meantime
just keep playing the hell out of it - I know none of my audiences would hear overtones ha ha! Laughing

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Bob Kagy · From: Lafayette, CO USA

Chuck is that only on open strings or does it occur whan you're fretting with the bar?

If it's only on open strings try damping the 3rd & 4th behind the roller nuts with your finger; see if that has any effect. If so you may be able to reduce it by inserting a soft piece of rubber like an eraser between those 2 strings behind the nut. It shouldn't interfere with raising & lowering with pedals. The use of a heavier oil (like 10W-30) on those 2 roller nuts can help if the roller nuts are feeding overtones back up the strings.

I have a GFI Ultra D10 with GFI II pickups which seems to have a similar sound up around the 9th and 10 frets, same strings, E9th neck. I've been able to mitigate it with EQ on a NV112. The Webb I have doesn't make it stand out. The C6th neck is OK.

Hope some of this may help.

Chuck Blake · From: West Virginia, USA

I forgot to mention and Bob reminded me the noise or tone I'm hearing is noticeable when the bar is applied. My bar appears to be ding free, no noticeable scrapes or other deformities.

To repeat, I've changed strings, moved to various rooms in the house, tried a couple of amps. I've checked fingers, roller ect. I've tried different positions of left hand dampening.

My main amp is a Roland Cube 80 XL. I've tried changing the settings from my normal positions.

The common denominator is when I changed strings the sounds appeared.

Bob Kagy · From: Lafayette, CO USA

Hmmm. BTW I agree with what Jim said.

I use Jagwire strings but have Cobra Coils on during Jagwire's recovery - neither give me problems. I also use the BJS bar. But understand what you're saying about the common denominator. So except for bars or picking with the points of the fingerpicks I don't have any other ideas. (btw does it happen using a thumbpick?)

Hope you keep us posted; it's always good to hear what fixes it.

Chuck Blake · From: West Virginia, USA

Thanks guys for the input. No fix yet. I will keep the info flowing.

One thing, I have asked several people into my music room and all agree the high pitch tone is very REAL!

Jim Priebe · From: Queensland, Australia - R.I.P.

Chuck

First I apologise for my long winded earlier post - I hope I didn't stray from your problem too much.
As you use SIT (I don't think they are stainless strings) which are brand new and bound to be vibrating at their maximum here's some suggestions that may help:
Try ensuring that your 'behind the bar fingers' are damping the offending strings securely. They probably are on the low strings but may not be on the highest strings.
Keep a bit more bar pressure on the strings - your ear will compensate and adjust your bar posititon back very slightly.
Run a straight edge across the strings to check that there is a near perfect straight line there - I have seen this to be out due to some nut rollers not having the strings all bedded in them correctly eg. Dobro copies with crappy nuts.
Check for any loose screws or bolts underneath. My up lever screws (one screw is tapped) into the changer structure and it was slightly loose. Any slight thing like this can amplify offending frequencies just by chance. The die board used in GFI's is VERY resonant (amazingly) and they have good sustain.
Check that your rods aren't clunking too much as that gives room for vibration - I thread auto electricians waxed braid over any offending rods to fix that or heat shrink tubing will do the job too. Most GFI's are not 'clunkers though'.
I hope you find this of some use.
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www.steelguitardownunder.com

Chuck Blake · From: West Virginia, USA

Thanks Jim, I will try all of the above.......you post "gud stuffy" Very Happy

Steve Lipsey · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Which pickup are you using? The GFI-III can be somewhat shrill at times...
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Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

I've been thinking about this after having read your post yesterday. It's odd that you noticed it only after a string change. Even more odd that changing out the affected strings do not seem to help the condition. That would have been my first guess. I cannot think of anything mechanical to cause this that hasn't been mentioned earlier.

Sometimes you get bad strings in a batch or a set. Is it possible that the old strings were so badly worn as to lose their resonance, happened too gradually to notice all at once? S.I.T's have always served me well, but you can get bad ones from any distributor.

This is a strange one for sure. If you can get Greg to look at it as you alluded, that would be the best action. Sometimes things happen that defy logic and it takes an analytic mind like Greg's to figure it out. Good Luck.

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

SIT is a good string, I have used them often with no problems....

I would imagine your 3rd string is an 011...

Try this.Go to your local music shop/guitar store, and get an .0115, any decent brand for now, and try it,,, See if the little bit of extra tension on the .0115 helps.
Its certainly worth a shot... bob
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Hook Moore · From: South Charleston,West Virginia

Chuck, hope you know you would be welcome to bring your guitar to my place anytime. I'm sure we can figure out whats going on..
Hook
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Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

FWIW: in the last few months I have gone through switching between 3 string brands/types on a GFI Ultra and a Dekley, to figure out what strings I like best on each PSG for tone, tone-balance and balance with the pull-system. Neither of these PSGs have burrs/defects on bridge/changer or anywhere else, as both PSGs have only been played a few hundred hours at most ... the Dekley have the least playing-time strangely enough as it has been under a bed or in a closet somewhere since it was new, and probably hadn't been played much if at all until I got it last year.

As for strings: the SIT EM strings had .011 on 3d. Jagwire LG and the all new LiveSteelString (custom) both have .0115 as 3d.

For sound-evaluation I buffer the PSGs (Goodrich 7A), and bypass the entire pre/eq section on an NV-112 by plugging into the power-in (post-eq return). Thats the set-up I almost always practice/play through at home anyway, so I'm used to "un-filtered PSG" Smile

All these 3 string-sets respond with a ringing overtone on 3d string when I pick for it, and, more interesting, although the different string-brands respond with different overtone-compositions, all 3 string-brands had/have the tendency to "ring" at the same basic overtone-frequencies for each of the two PSGs.
Read that as: slight differences in overtone-"ring" frequencies between the GFI and the Dekley, but pretty constant basic "ring" frequencies for each PSG brand regardless of string-brand.

Different overtone-levels but no extreme overtone-levels for any string-brand on any PSG. 1st, 2d and 4th string also respond with "ringing overtones" for all 3 string-brands (when I pick for it), just much less pronounced than for 3d string.

So, why do all 3 string-brands respond with basic overtone "ring" frequencies inherent to each PSG brand? So far I can only contribute that to slight differences in radius on the bridge/changer rollers, and the materials/weight/rigidness differences between a GFI and a Dekley in the bridge/changer area. Bridge/changer roller radius difference should technically matter most for overtones, as the strings get "excited" by vibrating over and "slamming into" a large-radius bridge on the GFI and Dekley - as on most PSGs.

Apart from potential problems with extreme overtones and buzz-sounds caused by defect string-sets and/or wear on the bridge, overtones on thinnest strings is, or should be, normal on a PSG, IMO. The key is "good-sounding overtone-mixes", as if it doesn't sound good there must be something wrong with the strings, instrument, or playing technique.

If I can't produce a nice mix of overtones on a string-set on my PSGs, that string-set/brand get replaced in no time. So far all attempts of making SIT strings work on any of my PSGs have failed - they produce "strange" overtone-mixes to my ear, while I experience no problems on any of my PSGs when using Jagwire LG or my old favorite: D'addario custom-gauges. LiveSteelStrings need more testing - one week isn't enough, but they respond/sound very similar to Jagwire LG ... and no problematic overtones neither on the GFI nor on the Dekley.

Bob Kagy · From: Lafayette, CO USA

You're getting some great suggestions. Here's one more that may help. Get ears close to your guitar with the amp off to see exactly where the noise is coming from based on all the suggestions already mentioned. Your own ears (with a few contortions) and better still your buddies ears. Something that acts like a stethoscope such as a hose length could help.

Chuck Blake · From: West Virginia, USA

Steve my guitar has the GFI II pup.

Jerry I have sent Greg a couple of messages, so far no response. He may be busy.

Hook I may need to impose on you......maybe we can exchange phone numbers.

Bob I will look into a larger string.

George maybe it's my ears. Wondering if the noise can be heard over phone! If so I would be willing to let others listen.

The mystery continues.......oh yea! thanks for everyone your help!

Jacek Jakubek · From: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada

I get overtones coming from the strings behind the nut rollers, going towards the tuning pegs, especially string 6-7 on my 12 string guitar.

What solved the problem was putting a piece of cloth under the strings at the keyhead. This cloth touches the strings from underneath and muffles the overtones.
you have to push the cloth in with a screwdriver or the end of a pen/pencil to get it all in there.

You can hardly see the cloth because it is the same colour as my guitar.

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Chuck Blake · From: West Virginia, USA

Georg, I'm not familar with the program you mentioned.

Probably should rely on an "in person visit" Smile

C.

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Here's SoundCloud.

If you haven't figured out the problem till after the Southern Illinois Steel Guitar Show April 19-21, PM me and I can drop by on my way back down. If nothing else I know the GFI Ultra inside/out... Smile

Chuck Blake · From: West Virginia, USA

Well, I now have put the 3rd new string on which BTW is the # 3 string (to avoid confusion).

Tone remains Sad

I had veteran player Greg Jones listen to my guitar and he hears what I am hearing. I tried his suggestions.

Next option he will visit my house to begin work discovering the source of the tone.

Complete string manufacturer change will probably be next in line..........

To be updated Oh Well

Steve English · From: Baja, Arizona

I have to agree with Jacek.

A small piece of foam between the strings will kill that overtone also.
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Steve English · From: Baja, Arizona

I have to agree with Jacek.

A small piece of foam between the strings will kill that overtone also.
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