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Topic: How to adjust the 2nd string feel-stop? |
Steve Lipsey
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 28 Mar 2012 10:30 am |
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Is there a way to get this right? It is close, but not right...Changing holes on the crank seems too extreme...am I just missing something obvious on adjusting this?
Or do I do it sort of like a split tuning thing....set the nylon nut for the D feel stop, then change the lever mechanical stop so that the C# is right? seems hard to get exactly...
_________________
https://www.lostsailorspdx.com
Williams S10s, Milkman Pedal Steel Mini & "The Amp"
Ben Bonham Resos, 1954 Oahu Diana, 1936 Oahu Parlor |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 28 Mar 2012 10:44 am
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Not sure which of your guitars you are speaking of, but they should all be similar. A lot of builders (Williams for sure) use a pull on another string to accomplish the added resistance you feel at the "half stop". Usually, it is a lower on the 9th string to C#, although it could be any string, including a pull on the C6th neck (as I have had in the past). This is a hard thing to get timed right so the D is in tune when the other string starts to pull. You may have to play with the rod locations on the 9th string to accomplish this.
What I don't understand is, didn't the 3 guitars you list in your signature already come with the half stops installed? Unless someone messes with the rods or changes the gauges of the strings, it should be fine.
I think this method of getting a half stop is the worst idea that has been implemented on the PSG. I think there should be a separate mechanism under the guitar (similar to the Sho~Bud and SHild guitars) that can be adjusted regardless of other strings being pulled. It should be spring loaded so you can change the spring if you want to change the amount of resistance. My Carter uses an "11th" finger (actually only the bottom part of the finger) to get the adjustment for the half stop. Even it is very "iffy" as to where the half stop actually is.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 28 Mar 2012 11:58 am Re: How to adjust the 2nd string feel-stop?
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| Steve Lipsey wrote: |
Or do I do it sort of like a split tuning thing....set the nylon nut for the D feel stop, then change the lever mechanical stop so that the C# is right? seems hard to get exactly... |
Steve, if you're talking about the Williams guitar (and maybe your Rains and GFI too, I'm not sure), normal tuning procedure is:
Tune 2nd string open
Tune 2nd string dropped all the way to C# with nylon nut
Tune 9th string open
Tune 9th string lower with its nylon nut
The 2nd string feel-stop 'D' note is then supposed to be in tune, based on factory setting of the rods and bellcranks. But if it's not, I think you would need to move to a different bellcrank hole. Experiment. And then never change string guages.  |
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CrowBear Schmitt
From:
Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France
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Posted 28 Mar 2012 12:15 pm
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from the Zum manual - " Tuning the Feel Stop "
which i hope applies to your steel Steve
1 - Tune open string 2 ( Eb ) w: key on left as usual
2 - Tune the Full tone change ( Eb to C# )w: the respective nylon hex nut/tuner on right
3 - Tune the Half Lower " Feel " by adjusting the nylon hex nut/tuner which lowers string 9 ( D )
it's usually marked in a different color like red, blue or black - not white
This nut/tuner should be adjusted to contact the 9th string changer finger when string 2 reaches it's half tone change ( Eb to D )
4 - With the knee lever fully engaged, the 9th string will be slightly flat of C# - Correct this by adjusting set screw in the end of the neck behind the 9th string
From the Williams manual :
Please follow these instructions when making adjustments to the 2nd string feel stop.
First, tune the 2nd string open (D# note).
Now, with the Right Knee Right (RKR) Knee Lever engaged, tune the 2nd string a full step lower (D# down to C#).
Next, tune the 9th string open (D note).
With the RKR knee lever engaged, tune the 9th string a half step lower (D down to C#), the 2nd string split (D note) will occur automatically.
Please note that the knee lever “action” of the 9th or 2nd strings can be changed by changing the pull rod position in the bell cranks. However, these pull rods are pre-set at the factory, and most likely will not need to be changed. Also, the “bump stop” feel can be increased by tightening the 9th string changer spring. |
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Brett Lanier
From:
Madison, TN
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Posted 28 Mar 2012 12:27 pm Re: How to adjust the 2nd string feel-stop?
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| Tucker Jackson wrote: |
| Steve Lipsey wrote: |
Or do I do it sort of like a split tuning thing....set the nylon nut for the D feel stop, then change the lever mechanical stop so that the C# is right? seems hard to get exactly... |
Steve, if you're talking about the Williams guitar (and maybe your Rains and GFI too, I'm not sure), normal tuning procedure is:
Tune 2nd string open
Tune 2nd string dropped all the way to C# with nylon nut
Tune 9th string open
Tune 9th string lower with its nylon nut
The 2nd string feel-stop 'D' note is then supposed to be in tune, based on factory setting of the rods and bellcranks. But if it's not, I think you would need to move to a different bellcrank hole. Experiment. And then never change string guages. |
This is not the case with all pull guitars I've had or played.
You tune the ninth string lower with the final lower screw. Also tune the second string whole step lower with the final lower screw for the second string. Then, you tune the D note on the second string (feel stop) with the nylon tuner on the ninth string. Thats the way to get them all tuneable, you're not leaving anything up to chance. The nylon on the second string doesn't tune a pitch. It just has to pull the right amount to get it all the way to C#. Of course after you do all of this, make sure you still have a little play in the rods.
*edit* This is basically the same procedure as what Crowbear provided from the Zum site. The difference is that the C# note on the second string is being tuned with either the nylon or set screw. Either would be fine. The main idea is tuning the feel stop with the nylon on the ninth string. |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 28 Mar 2012 1:29 pm
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| On the steels that I build there is an adjustable plunge mechanism under the guitar that is both adjustable for stifness feel AND the D note. |
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Steve Lipsey
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 28 Mar 2012 4:41 pm
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Thanks, guys! I suspected that there had to be something like split thing to get it exact and let you be able to adjust it for whatever gremlin sometimes causes stuff to go out .....using the split tuning screw on the Rains will work fine.
The GFI has none, so it would just be playing with the bell cranks to try to luck out...
The Williams can have either screws or compensating rods to get it right, the one that arrives tomorrow has some rods for splits, but I don't know on which strings, I can order them for string 2 if needed. They say it just works automatically without them, but I am suspicious of that....
THE ONE REMAINING QUESTION:
The Williams I probably am going to order soon will definitely get rods wherever needed. I prefer them to screws because there is only one tool to adjust it all....is there a reason why screws would be better than rods (assuming that there are enough holes in the changer for it all)?
_________________
https://www.lostsailorspdx.com
Williams S10s, Milkman Pedal Steel Mini & "The Amp"
Ben Bonham Resos, 1954 Oahu Diana, 1936 Oahu Parlor |
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Paddy Long
From:
Christchurch, New Zealand
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Posted 28 Mar 2012 5:49 pm
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Another little tip for you too - if you find the half stop a little spongy and not that positive, tighten the lower return screw a smidgen until the stop feels a little more positive !!
_________________
14'Zumsteel Hybrid D10 9+9
08'Zumsteel Hybrid D10 9+9
94' Franklin Stereo D10 9+8
Telonics, Peterson, Steelers Choice, Benado, Lexicon, Red Dirt Cases. |
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Brett Lanier
From:
Madison, TN
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Posted 28 Mar 2012 5:50 pm
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| Steve Lipsey wrote: |
| is there a reason why screws would be better than rods (assuming that there are enough holes in the changer for it all)? |
I like the idea of using set screws whenever possible (all the final lowers). I could be speaking out of turn here but imo those floppy aluminum rods that are used on most all pull guitars nowadays stink. They expand and contract, and you end up constantly re-tuning the changer. If you think about it, the tuning of a pull goes all the way to the bell crank. I think it ought to stop closer to the string, in the changer, at least for all the final raises and lowers. I think this is partly why a push pull stays in tune so well and needs less adjusting. The pull rod is just a mechanism, which only needs to pull or push it enough to get it to the stop. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 28 Mar 2012 6:41 pm
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I'm with Brett. An entirely more positive stop, especially with so much thin soft aluminum out there
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 28 Mar 2012 7:05 pm
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
| An entirely more positive stop, especially with so much thin soft aluminum out there |
+1 ...  |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 29 Mar 2012 7:22 am
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| Sometimes you can change the gauge of the 2nd string so the 1/2 stop is spot on when the 9th string kicks in. I remember doing that with an old Sho~Bud. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 29 Mar 2012 8:02 am
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Kevin said:
| Quote: |
| On the steels that I build there is an adjustable plunge mechanism under the guitar that is both adjustable for stifness feel AND the D note. |
And, that's the way it should be on every guitar in my opinion.
Steve L. said:
| Quote: |
The Williams can have either screws or compensating rods to get it right, the one that arrives tomorrow has some rods for splits, but I don't know on which strings, I can order them for string 2 if needed. They say it just works automatically without them, but I am suspicious of that.... |
Remember, splits and half stops (feel stops) ARE NOT the same thing. The split take 2 changes, say string 5, with the A pedal raising to C# and a lever lowering the 5th string (to Bb), the resulting note is a C (more or less). The half stop only uses one pedal or lever with some way to get resistance part way through it's travel to get a note halfway between the open note and the fully lowered note (a whole step). The Williams I had used the C to B change on the C6th neck for the half stop (I don't lower string 9 to a C#), but it is the same as if they use the 9th string. If Williams says the 2nd string half stop is automatic, this is what they did. You can take it to the bank that it will work.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Patrick Laffrat
From:
Gemenos, France
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Steve Lipsey
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 29 Mar 2012 10:03 pm
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The williams arrived today (sure is, and sounds, pretty!)...the second string stop is nonexistent.....I'll try cranking up the spring to give it some muscle, it doesn't look any tighter than the other springs right now....but before I do...
What, really, is the use of the C#? Is it just for quick alternate picking as a scale note to avoid the pedal pull from BN->C# on string 5?
I use the D all the time, as an open 7th and pedals down scale note, and would rather have a definitive D than a C# and squishy D, unless I can figure out why I need the C#.....
_________________
https://www.lostsailorspdx.com
Williams S10s, Milkman Pedal Steel Mini & "The Amp"
Ben Bonham Resos, 1954 Oahu Diana, 1936 Oahu Parlor |
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Bill Moore
From:
Manchester, Michigan
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Posted 30 Mar 2012 4:27 am
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Steve, if the Williams has the screws behind the changer adjust the half stop like this:
1. tune the 2nd and 9th string to their open pitch
2. activate the lever that lowers both, then tune the C# notes on both strings, using the nylon tuning nuts. Make sure the screw, if there is one, for the 2nd string is not making contact with the finger when you lower the string.
3. tune the half stop on 2 by adjusting the nylon tuner on the 9th sting. Take your time and get it right on.
4. now go to the screw for the 9th string, adjust this until the lowered note, C# is correct. You might want to make a very small adjustment to the spring on the 9th string, more tension will make the half stop more positive.
If you adjust carefully, you will get a very nice half stop feel for the D on the 2nd string. |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 30 Mar 2012 5:54 am
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No changer screws on that one. Basically, you adjust the two pulls so the pull starts on the 9th string at the exact instant you reach the half tone position on the second, which adds the resistance of the 9th string and 9th return spring to the "feel" of the second string. You have to get used to it on each different guitar and how the feel changes, as well as approximately where in the travel it starts. It has to be a "feel" thing, as you're moving through one note on the way to another. If it was rock solid, you'd have to push much harder to get to the C#.
If you're talking about the C# on the second string, the unison with the 5th string raise gives you all kinds of moving beauty, split notes going in two different directions, and on and on. Try raising and releasing the first string F#-G#, then messing with the 2nd string raise, release to D#, then lower to D and finally C#. LOTS of cool stuff there!
_________________
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 30 Mar 2012 6:06 am
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| Steve Lipsey wrote: |
What, really, is the use of the C#? Is it just for quick alternate picking as a scale note to avoid the pedal pull from BN->C# on string 5?
I use the D all the time, as an open 7th and pedals down scale note, and would rather have a definitive D than a C# and squishy D, unless I can figure out why I need the C#..... |
The coolest use is "The Emmons Cross", heard in the 3rd bar of this kickoff: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFj680v3xM8
Mickey has a tutorial for it, but I can never find it.
Another use, also a counterpoint departure from a unison with 5A, is on the Ricky Skaggs hit "I'll Take the Blame." The A&B pedals is the I chord, chorus starts on V. Bruce hit the unison of 5&2, then releases A and lets 2 rise to the D.
I use it on a lot of minor key scalar licks.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Steve Lipsey
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 30 Mar 2012 12:21 pm
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Thanks, guys....I appreciate your patience with these noobie questions, I keep getting to a point where I can absorb new stuff and specific questions come to mind...I do a search, found some stuff, but somehow a fresh ask of the question always brings up some cool new thoughts...
_________________
https://www.lostsailorspdx.com
Williams S10s, Milkman Pedal Steel Mini & "The Amp"
Ben Bonham Resos, 1954 Oahu Diana, 1936 Oahu Parlor |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 30 Mar 2012 4:03 pm
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Steve, I see you're in Portland. I believe Larry Behm gives lessons (for that matter, some of the other guys on the forum from there might, but I've never met them, I guess they never played at Jubitz when I was stuck there in the 90s). Great guy, patient.
All the tutorials and books are great, but a bit of face time with a teacher does wonders.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Skip Edwards
From:
LA,CA
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Posted 30 Mar 2012 6:20 pm
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So...a bit of a related question...
The 2nd string feel stop on my SuperPro hits the D just fine when the 9th string kicks in, but the amount of resistance that the 9th string provides is pretty light.
Any thoughts on how to get a little more resistance from the 9th string?
The rod that lowers the 9th string is on the bell crank hole furthest from the body,
and at the changer, the rod goes thru the higher of the 2 lowering slots. |
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Tom Keller
From:
Greeneville, TN, USA
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Posted 30 Mar 2012 6:24 pm
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| Steve, In my opinion the second string feel stop is one of the hardest adjustments to make especially if you haven't actually watched someone do it. It's a bear but in my case I am a mechanical klutz. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 30 Mar 2012 6:51 pm
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Skip, if your return spring on the 9th is adjustable, crank it stiffer. If it's not, you could add a second return spring, or Michael Yahl has a kit for $58 (I think) to add the old-school dedicated half stop, on which you can adjust the tension.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 30 Mar 2012 6:56 pm
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| Skip Edwards wrote: |
So...a bit of a related question...
The 2nd string feel stop on my SuperPro hits the D just fine when the 9th string kicks in, but the amount of resistance that the 9th string provides is pretty light.
Any thoughts on how to get a little more resistance from the 9th string?
The rod that lowers the 9th string is on the bell crank hole furthest from the body,
and at the changer, the rod goes thru the higher of the 2 lowering slots. |
I can think of 3 things that should stiffen the 9th string drop and provide greater half-stop "feel"
1] tighten the 9th string return spring, to increase the resistance of the 9th string drop
2] change the pullrod to the changer hole closest to the changer body
3] install a Sho-Bud type 1/2 stop pushrod/collar/spring assembly |
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Skip Edwards
From:
LA,CA
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Posted 30 Mar 2012 7:16 pm
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That's pretty much what I figured...
I'll work on it. Thanks... |
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