Binding seperation on Gibson EH-100

David Hayes · From: California, USA

Three spots have separated - two near neck and one between the upper and lower bout (see pics). How big a problems is it - how expensive to repair?

Can I repair it myself? If not, can you recommend a good repair shop is Southern California to do the repair?

Jerome Hawkes · From: Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA

You could do it- stew-mac sells the binding adheasive and then you just wrap cord/twine around the body real snug for a few days. Might have to heat it with a hair dryer first to soften it up wherE it has shrunk.
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'65 Sho-Bud D-10 Permanent • '54 Fender Dual-8 • Clinesmith T-8 • '38 Ric Bakelite • '92 Emmons D-10 Legrande II

Glenn Uhler · From: Trenton, New Jersey, USA

If you can't find a guitar repair person nearby, you could try it yourself. Jerome is on the right track, and I will give you more detail.

You can use Duco cement from the hardware store, and a roll of blue masking tape. Use the tape to protect the finish on the sides and top of the guitar where you will be glueing. Use the hair dryer to soften the binding so you can push it back in place easily. When it's soft, squeeze some glue behind the binding and spread it around with a flat toothpick. Carefully push the binding into place and tape it securely with more of the blue tape. After a couple of days (or when you can't smell the glue anymore), you can remove the tape. Then you can scraoe away the excess glue with a small scraoer.
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1974 Marlen S-12 1968 Tele 1969 Martin D-35H

David Hayes · From: California, USA

Thanks Jerome & Glen - appreciate the tips.

If I can find a luthier to do it at a reasonable price I will but on most things I find them too expensive around here.

Another site recommended Titebond Liquid Hide Glue. This is a 1938 Gibson EH-100 so not sure what the binding is made of but I suspect cellulose? Are either of these glues better or worse for these old materials? Is either of them easier to recover from messing up (I am not the handiest guy on the planet).

Thanks again.

Glenn Uhler · From: Trenton, New Jersey, USA

The bindings from that era are Celluloid, a form of nitrocellulose. They were probably glued on with hot hide glue, which is a totally different animal from liquid hide glue. Liquid hide glue might not be strong enough to hold the binding.

The hide glues are both easily reversible with hot water. The Duco cement and the Stew-Mac cement are not reversible. That's also why you need to protect the finish were you do the glueing.
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1974 Marlen S-12 1968 Tele 1969 Martin D-35H

David Hayes · From: California, USA

So Duco cement is safe on the Celluloid binding I just need to be careful about getting it on the rest of the guitar? If that is what you recommend I will go that route and hope I don't screw it up. Thank you Glenn.

John Allison · From: Austin, Texas, USA

You run the risk of making a mess of things with Duco. It's acetone based and will melt the binding and the finish. And if you use a heat source to try to "soften" the binding you can melt it (or burn it - it's actually very flammable) and bubble the finish around it. If you care about the value of your instrument, find a competent luthier.
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John Allison
Allison Stringed Instruments
Austin, Texas
www.allisonguitars.com

David Hayes · From: California, USA

I hear you John I would prefer to have a competent luthier do it but I can not afford $150 for this type of repair (which is what I have been quoted).

So maybe I just try the "reversible" method of using Titebond Liquid Hide Glue and very low heat (maybe wait for a sunny day).

Alternatively, if someone want to buy this thing (with OHSC) and fix it themselves - make me an offer. Rolling Eyes

Jerome Hawkes · From: Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA

just play the thing ... my 1939 Gibson L5 is missing binding all over the place and had mice living in it for years - so what, it still cuts like only a well aged archtop can.
its not going to fall apart because the binding is pulling up.

its NOT going to cost $150 for that repair (even in So. Cal dollars)
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'65 Sho-Bud D-10 Permanent • '54 Fender Dual-8 • Clinesmith T-8 • '38 Ric Bakelite • '92 Emmons D-10 Legrande II

John Allison · From: Austin, Texas, USA

Jerome's not wrong...it's possible to just go on with it and not worry too much. If the binding starts to separate much more, it'll open up far enough to be able to take up the shrinkage.

The $150's a little steep for a simple repair and not quite enough for a full-on cut/splice/touch-up restoration. We do that sort of simple binding repair pretty routinely for less than $100. A lot depends on whether the shrinkage is severe and you just can't possibly close the gap with reasonable pressure.

For the record, a glue that will make a strong bond and not hurt the finish (provided that it's cleaned off in a reasonable time) is the urethane based Gorilla glue. We use that, or something very similar, for binding new guitars instead of Duco. Duco works for Nitro binding, but it makes the binding shrink pretty badly unless it's left to dry for days or weeks before it's scraped even with the wood.

Anyway, don't sweat it too much and if you plan to sell it in the foreseeable future, definitely leave it alone. You're not going to enhance the value with a less-than-perfect repair.
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John Allison
Allison Stringed Instruments
Austin, Texas
www.allisonguitars.com

Bill Creller · From: Saginaw, Michigan, USA (deceased)

I was told by a guitar builder to use Tite=Bond II glue, when I removed the fret board on a bass, to fix a truss rod problem. Anyway, it worked OK.

John Allison · From: Austin, Texas, USA

Tite-Bond or Tite-Bond II is the go-to stuff for wood repairs, but not so much for plastics.

BTW, David...that thing is a beauty and I don't think you'd have any problem getting a pretty good price for it as is. That model is about the only six-stringer I ever really liked.
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John Allison
Allison Stringed Instruments
Austin, Texas
www.allisonguitars.com

David Hayes · From: California, USA

John Allison · From: Austin, Texas, USA

Celluloid is a plastic. There are different types these days, but it was pretty much the only thing available for bindings and pick guards back in the day.

The upshot is this:
Hide glue or Titebond will hold the binding in place for a while, but will eventually let loose again. If you don't close the gap between the wood and binding, you just leave a wad of dried glue filling up the gap and that will have to be removed someday when it's done properly. Duco is a more permanent bond, but you can quickly do more harm than good. The urethane type (Gorilla) glue will work well but, again, the gap is the problem. The only way to safely make celluloid binding material more pliable is to heat it with boiling water or in with something like an electric skillet filled with sand and heated to a temp of 200+. Direct heat sources are iffy because the material is flammable to the point of being classified as an explosive - not to mention the potential of damaging the finish. Also, making it bend easier doesn't make it stretch and therefore doesn't solve the shrinkage problem.

So...if you can push the binding back in place with hand pressure and tape or with a properly shaped and placed clamping caul, you stand a good chance of making a quick, clean repair. If it needs a more extensive repair like separating the binding further around to relieve the tension from shrinkage and regluing a larger section, then your $150 quote isn't be too far out of line.
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John Allison
Allison Stringed Instruments
Austin, Texas
www.allisonguitars.com

Brad Bechtel · From: San Francisco, CA

I would talk to the folks at McCabe's in Santa Monica about this kind of repair. If anyone in southern California can do it properly, they can.
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Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

i have fixed bindings on hundreds of guitars. your problem is more complex that what you see. the separation is a result of the binding shrinking. since the binding has lost all of its elasticity over so many years, it us now very hard and prone to cracking. notice that it has pulled away at the same curves in the body. that is shrinking.

if this was an instrument that was worth a LOT of money, one way to repair would be to zip the binding off all the way around and reglue. the gap from the binding shrinking would be down at the butt end of the guitar and you would insert a tiny piece of binding to take up the gap. some newer binding will allow some heat to stretch it back in place and then when it cools it will be easy to glue.

your guitar is not that valuable...its a cool guitar, but you mentioned not wanting to pay $150 to have it fixed. well for those that think this is a lot of money, it will take several hours worth of hand labor to do this. the glue you have to use will destroy the finish, so if you can make a mess of things before you know it.

my mechanic charges $95 an hour. a luthier does work that is just as skillful so he should be able to charge that. hacks charge less and i have seen plenty of hack guitar work in my life.

in regards to the glue, duco cement used to be a good choice, but the gov has made them take so much of the chems out of it because of people sniffing it, so it does not work as well as it used to. you have to use lots of it and on the this old binding, this is going to be tricky to get enough glue in the binding ledge so as to soften up the celluloid and then when you pull the binding back in the ledge the glue not ooze out and get on your finish. duco cement will destroy the finish instantly!! it contains acetone.

having said all that, if you have never done this repair, dont think that is just slathering glue in and pressing the binding back down. take it to some one who has the experience.

David Hayes · From: California, USA

Any ideas as to how much this guitar is worth as it sits vs. After the repair?

John Allison · From: Austin, Texas, USA

I noticed that a couple of EH-150's on Ebay went for $700-800. Also, a quick search of the site here turns up a couple of examples of EH-100's with asking prices in the $500-$700 range. Hard to say whether you'd recoup the total cost of the repair or be better off selling "as is", but, as I mentioned before, you won't help the value at all by attempting a repair yourself. If it's possible you ever get up around Palo Alto, Gryphon Stringed Instruments is a great choice. They deal with a lot of vintage instruments and have some of the best repair staff in the country. If you're thinking of selling, they might offer you a decent price outright.
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John Allison
Allison Stringed Instruments
Austin, Texas
www.allisonguitars.com

David Hayes · From: California, USA

Well I paid $600 for this one - luckily the store I bought it from has agreed to take it back and give me a refund so unless someone here wants it for $600 plus shipping - back to the store it goes!

John Allison · From: Austin, Texas, USA

Take the money and run...
Not that it's such a bad price at the retail level, but unless you're just loving it and don't care at all about the binding, you'll be happier starting with a clean slate. For the money you can find something that doesn't have any problems or potential problems.
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John Allison
Allison Stringed Instruments
Austin, Texas
www.allisonguitars.com

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