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Topic: Flag for Sho Bud pot metal knee lever |
Jeff Watson
From:
Anza, CA. USA
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Posted 12 May 2012 8:53 am |
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| I was wondering if anybody had any ideas or examples of how to add a flag to an old Sho Bud straight knee lever? |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 13 May 2012 5:28 am
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If it were MY Bud, I'd order an aluminum replacement lever from James and attach the flag by screwing it into tapped holes (maybe even ask him to do the tapping).
If you plan to stick with pot metal, I think I'd use cyanoacrylates. I suspect attempts to drill and tap old pot metal would end in disaster.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 13 May 2012 6:52 am
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Although, I think my Super Pro with pot metal levers had a tapped hole in it for adjusting the angle (memory a little foggy here), I would have to agree with lane. Pot metal can be a real pain to drill in to. I too would just super glue one on if I didn't want to upgrade the levers as Lane suggested. I think they are also chrome plated (not very well, but still plated) and the hole was probably done when cast and tapped before plating.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting. |
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Cal Sharp
From:
the farm in Kornfield Kounty, TN
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Posted 13 May 2012 7:28 am
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The only part that actually broke on any steel guitar I ever owned was a pot metal knee lever on a Professional, which left me with a bad feeling about Sho~Buds, unfortunately. Like Lane, I'd start by replacing the knee lever(s).
_________________
C#
Me: Steel Guitar Madness
Latest ebook: Steel Guitar Insanity
Custom Made Covers for Steel Guitars & Amps at Sharp Covers Nashville |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 13 May 2012 7:33 am
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I broke several of the knee lever brackets on the LKL (couldn't take the angle of my knee when it it hit the lever), but never an actual knee lever. Unfortunately, I did not know about the forum at the time and didn't know anyone made replacement parts. Had Michael Yahl and James Morehead been around then , I might still own that 'Bud.
Interesting note. When I bought the guitar (used), there were only 5 levers, so obviously 1 broke on the previous owner. All the rest of the brackets had something like Liquid Steel in the "craters" of the brackets to strengthen them up.. DIDN'T WORK.
 For Cal. Does Leann know about the babe glomming onto you in your avatar? 
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting. |
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John Drury
From:
Gallatin, Tn USA
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Posted 13 May 2012 12:36 pm
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Can't imagine breaking a Bud knee lever, I have owned nine SHO~BUD's over the years, never broke the first lever, or a bracket either. I will admit though I am very cautious around my guitars and anything else I own.
That being said here are photos of the RKR on my Pro-II. I have done this for dozens of customers guitars over the years, never had a complaint. Aluminum flat stock is right out of the bin at Lowes. I drilled through the lever and tapped it, no problems.
On my guitar that is a stock lever going on to one of James Moreheads brackets and channels. He does a great job on them, and Teresa's metal polishing is to die for! Cool people to deal with!
_________________
John Drury
NTSGA #3
"Practice cures most tone issues" ~ John Suhr |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 13 May 2012 12:48 pm
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That's the thing about pot metal; it often has enough strength. But it often doesn't.
And it has a thrilling randomness to it.
With my luck, the drill bit would find the bit that has the strength
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Jeff Watson
From:
Anza, CA. USA
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Posted 14 May 2012 2:01 pm
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| Thanks alot guys....especially John and the photos. I've got extra pot metal levers to work with so I'll give it a go with the tap set. Thanks again. |
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John Drury
From:
Gallatin, Tn USA
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Posted 14 May 2012 2:33 pm
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| Jeff Watson wrote: |
| Thanks alot guys....especially John and the photos. I've got extra pot metal levers to work with so I'll give it a go with the tap set. Thanks again. |
No sweat Jeff!
BTW, if the tap thing does go bad, no law against using longer screws and putting nuts on the back side!
_________________
John Drury
NTSGA #3
"Practice cures most tone issues" ~ John Suhr |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 14 May 2012 7:48 pm
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| Cal Sharp wrote: |
| The only part that actually broke on any steel guitar I ever owned was a pot metal knee lever on a Professional |
This makes me curious about Sho-Bud history. I believe I saw another such reference recently (i.e., to pot metal on a Professional). Previously, I was under the impression that the "Professional" model was separated from the use of pot metal undercarriage parts by several years, having only continued up to 1973 (using the rack-and-barrel undercarriage throughout).
I know Sho-Bud was anything but systematic in changing over model specifications, with any combination of parts being possible in changeover periods, depending on what they had left over. But my '77 Pro III, for example, still has teardrop levers on aluminum brackets. |
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Cal Sharp
From:
the farm in Kornfield Kounty, TN
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Posted 14 May 2012 8:18 pm
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This was the guitar in question, bought new from the Sho~Bud store (now Robert's ) in 1972. When the knee lever broke after a year or two Elmer Hobor, in South Bend, fixed it and told me it was pot metal. Now, the term "pot metal" makes me cringe, just like "Molex".
_________________
C#
Me: Steel Guitar Madness
Latest ebook: Steel Guitar Insanity
Custom Made Covers for Steel Guitars & Amps at Sharp Covers Nashville |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 14 May 2012 8:48 pm
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| Was it a teardrop lever? Maybe my assumption that those (and their associated hardware) are not pot metal has been incorrect. |
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Cal Sharp
From:
the farm in Kornfield Kounty, TN
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John Drury
From:
Gallatin, Tn USA
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Posted 15 May 2012 5:33 am
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Seems to me the term "pot metal" is misused somewhat, I believe the teardrop levers were cast aluminum.
I am not a metalurgist by any stretch but I don't think there was any kind of zinc or other alloy used making the levers.
From WIKI: The primary component of pot metal is zinc, but often the caster adds other metals to the mix to strengthen the cast part, improve the flow of the molten metal, or to reduce cost.[dubious – discuss] With a low melting point of 419 °C (786 °F), zinc is often alloyed with other metals including lead, tin, aluminium and copper
_________________
John Drury
NTSGA #3
"Practice cures most tone issues" ~ John Suhr |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 15 May 2012 6:27 am
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I the late 70's - early 80's, I worked for a metal finishing (plating, anodizing, etc), and pot metal was always referred to as zinc die cast. Cast aluminum was stronger and less porous than zinc. Both were a pain in the butt to work with.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting. |
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Bill Howard
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 18 May 2012 9:16 pm Pot Metal Junk Levers
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I make no effort to hide my total dismay for WHO EVER came up with those JUNK ^%$#@ Pot metal Levers.
I was embarassed beyond words when my LDG I gave nearly 2 grand for in 1983 Had the knee lever FALL OFF in the middle of my ride spot light shining on ME!.I heard some Laughs...HA HA HA I got rid of that JUNK the next day I never played another song on it.
I heard one of the Jacksons came up with the Idea...
THANKS OLD BUDDY!!!. HA HA HA What a MONEY saving IDEA and what stel was this JUNK put on the PRO MODELS??? PRO did you say? POT METAL JUNK!.
I will never own another Sho BUd for ANY reason!.
Just my opinion,I felt like crawling in a COKE bottle that night THANKS AGAIN!!! |
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John Drury
From:
Gallatin, Tn USA
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Posted 19 May 2012 4:29 am Re: Pot Metal Junk Levers
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| Bill Howard wrote: |
I make no effort to hide my total dismay for WHO EVER came up with those JUNK ^%$#@ Pot metal Levers.
I was embarassed beyond words when my LDG I gave nearly 2 grand for in 1983 Had the knee lever FALL OFF in the middle of my ride spot light shining on ME!.I heard some Laughs...HA HA HA I got rid of that JUNK the next day I never played another song on it.
I heard one of the Jacksons came up with the Idea...
THANKS OLD BUDDY!!!. HA HA HA What a MONEY saving IDEA and what stel was this JUNK put on the PRO MODELS??? PRO did you say? POT METAL JUNK!.
I will never own another Sho BUd for ANY reason!.
Just my opinion,I felt like crawling in a COKE bottle that night THANKS AGAIN!!! |
Gee Bill, why pussy foot around and sugar coat things? Go ahead and give us your true feelings about some of the greatest guitars ever built!
The Jacksons put the steel guitar mechanisms on the fast track, There isn't a guitar out there that does not copy their mech. in some way. Some of the ideas they came up with were nothing short of genius. I think they built an amazing guitar at an afforable price.
The only real mistake they ever made in my opinion, was the Maverick. That goes for all "Student model" guitars. I have yet to see one that was worth playing.
A quick inspection of the underside of your axe would have saved you some embarrassment that night, those brackets don't go bad overnight, a stress crack begins, the lever gets sloppy as hell, they finally go, it is a machine, that is what machines do, they wear as you use them, they require maintenance. Good thing you are not a pilot.
The decision to use cast aluminum (it is NOT pot metal!) on the brackets had to do with cost, and yes, you get a bad one now and then. Big deal!
Sho~Buds are some of the finest guitars ever built!
As always, JMOHO
Happy Sliding!
_________________
John Drury
NTSGA #3
"Practice cures most tone issues" ~ John Suhr |
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Tommy Minniear
From:
Logansport, Indiana
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Posted 19 May 2012 5:55 am Re: Pot Metal Junk Levers
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| John Drury wrote: |
| Bill Howard wrote: |
I make no effort to hide my total dismay for WHO EVER came up with those JUNK ^%$#@ Pot metal Levers.
I was embarassed beyond words when my LDG I gave nearly 2 grand for in 1983 Had the knee lever FALL OFF in the middle of my ride spot light shining on ME!.I heard some Laughs...HA HA HA I got rid of that JUNK the next day I never played another song on it.
I heard one of the Jacksons came up with the Idea...
THANKS OLD BUDDY!!!. HA HA HA What a MONEY saving IDEA and what stel was this JUNK put on the PRO MODELS??? PRO did you say? POT METAL JUNK!.
I will never own another Sho BUd for ANY reason!.
Just my opinion,I felt like crawling in a COKE bottle that night THANKS AGAIN!!! |
Gee Bill, why pussy foot around and sugar coat things? Go ahead and give us your true feelings about some of the greatest guitars ever built!
The Jacksons put the steel guitar mechanisms on the fast track, There isn't a guitar out there that does not copy their mech. in some way. Some of the ideas they came up with were nothing short of genius. I think they built an amazing guitar at an afforable price.
The only real mistake they ever made in my opinion, was the Maverick. That goes for all "Student model" guitars. I have yet to see one that was worth playing.
A quick inspection of the underside of your axe would have saved you some embarrassment that night, those brackets don't go bad overnight, a stress crack begins, the lever gets sloppy as hell, they finally go, it is a machine, that is what machines do, they wear as you use them, they require maintenance. Good thing you are not a pilot.
The decision to use cast aluminum (it is NOT pot metal!) on the brackets had to do with cost, and yes, you get a bad one now and then. Big deal!
Sho~Buds are some of the finest guitars ever built!
As always, JMOHO
Happy Sliding! |
Well said John, and at the appropriate time! |
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John Drury
From:
Gallatin, Tn USA
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Posted 19 May 2012 8:35 am
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Thanks Tommy. That needed to be said.
David and Harry Jackson did as much to advance pedal steel mechanics as anyone out there!
I personally have never broken a Sho~Bud knee lever bracket over the thirty some years I have played them, and I have owned nine in a row that I have bought, traded, built, etc.. If and when I do, its not the end of the world, I won't have to go ballistic and $h!t can my Bud, I just call Morehead, or Yall and buy a new part, no big whoop.
People that knock SHO~BUDS over a lousy broken part really singe my keester! For that matter any guitar, I don't know of any brand of pro model guitar ever built that you could really call junk!
I have owned other brands but my preference is a Sho~Bud, that is just me, and there are many others out there that feel the same. Each to his own.
Alrighty then!
J.D.
_________________
John Drury
NTSGA #3
"Practice cures most tone issues" ~ John Suhr |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 19 May 2012 9:42 am Re: Pot Metal Junk Levers
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| John Drury wrote: |
| The decision to use cast aluminum (it is NOT pot metal!) on the brackets had to do with cost, and yes, you get a bad one now and then. |
Thanks to this thread, I am still unclear as to the materials used in Sho-Buds of the various time periods.
Are you speaking of the so-called "Super Pro" era brackets here? The ones that go on hex cross shafts, have a shiny appearance with designed indentations, and when they snap, reveal a porous internal texture (it happened to me once--I replaced all brackets and levers with aluminum ones hand made by Billy Cooper and kept on truckin')? Are you saying that material is not pot metal, but cast aluminum?
My two older Buds--'74 and '77--have brackets and levers of a substantially different appearance, to my un-metallurgically savvy eye. They appear very much like the aluminum ones Billy made for my Super Pro. I'm under the impression that the change to the "Super Pro" type came significantly later than '73, so I'm bemused by Cal's recollection of a bracket or lever on his '73 Professional breaking, and a repairman calling it "pot metal." It seems pretty clear to me that the earlier ones are of material that is different from the Super Pro ones in at least some way, even if both are basically aluminum. Nomenclature is one thing; but if those earlier brackets are brittle and subject to snapping also, it comes as a surprise to me. |
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John Drury
From:
Gallatin, Tn USA
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Posted 19 May 2012 10:08 am
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Brint,
In a nutshell, most carping is in reference to the hex shaft lever brackets or "Super Pro" era and later guitars. The earlier brackets were steel, welded to the round shaft.
However the teardrop levers on round shaft guitars were also made from sand castings as were endplates, volume pedals, changers, fingers, keyheads, and even a few of the early pedal racks.
I have no knowledge of "pot metal" ever being used on a Sho~Bud, for anything, ever.
It would take someone like Bobbe to really put an amen to that, not sure how often he drops in here anymore, but if there ever was a pot metal part on a Sho~Bud, I sure as hell never ran across it in my thirty some years of repair work.
Back to the breakage issue, if there is a sandhole at the pressure point of a bracket, or lever it can snap. Other than that they are fairly durable. There are plenty of forged replacements out there.
_________________
John Drury
NTSGA #3
"Practice cures most tone issues" ~ John Suhr |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 19 May 2012 10:51 am
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John, thanks for the clarification. It flies in the face of commonly accepted lore. The term "pot metal" seems firmly entrenched in the steel guitar world's collective mind.
At the least, it would seem the later version of knee bracket was made of an inferior grade of material (the indentations making the bracket thinner no doubt also increasing the odds of a flaw being fatal), as anecdotal evidence indicates a lot more problems with breakage in guitars from the later era.
If '73 Buds are nevertheless still subject to the potential for breakage as you describe, what of other makes of steel? Was the use of sand castings unique to Sho-Bud? |
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Bill Howard
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 19 May 2012 2:01 pm Stress Cracks?
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First of all to the ones who said it took some time and I should have KNOWN?, What on a NEARLY NEW GUITAR) Less than 6 MONTHS OLD!) I gave almost 2 GRAND FOR!!??. OR do you THINK I should have to inspect a product I bought in good faith to be made well?, All because some cheap A$$ wanted to save a cpl bucks and use SUB STANDARD JUNK on their PRODUCT??.
And Other builders COPIED SHO BUD?? Why don't you ask Mr Franklin or one of the many others who worked at Sho Bud about who REALLY invented some of the great innovations Sho Bud got credit for.
I noticed a Jackson Steel on the forum been there for quite a while for sale..that said stick a Franklin on there think it would be there a few WEEKS?. I played a franklin 23 YEARS!. Other than minor tuning never touched it period!,Levers did NOT fall off of it,I didn't have to inspect it because of sub standard money saving short cuts were built into it,So dont go pointing your fingers at me because I expect to play something more than a few months before it falls apart in front of a crowd it was meant to entertain.If you like Sho Bud fine sorry but once bitten twice shy. All I can say is I hope the Jacksons are building them better than the Junk I bought I sold it back to the man i got it from I also lost about 700.00 on it,then I got my franklin. Sho Bud should come with a tool box like a model T, Also dont act like I'm the only one who knows about those Junk levers many many other S buds have had them replaced. At the time my Franklin cost about 250.00 more than a SB BEST money I ever Spent!.
My bet is the Junk will be hidden better on future ones. And you mentioned MAVERICKS look no further than the New Jacksons that ASHTRAY...straight from a Maverick...
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John Drury
From:
Gallatin, Tn USA
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Posted 19 May 2012 8:15 pm
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Brint,
The brackets made by aJames Morehead, Michael Yahl, and those that were made by the late John Coop are vastly superior to the cast parts, no chance of breaking.
No, sand castings were not unique to Sho~Buds.
_________________
John Drury
NTSGA #3
"Practice cures most tone issues" ~ John Suhr |
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Bill Howard
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 21 May 2012 7:28 pm Take A Look
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LOOK at the Maverick and Jackson picture..
They even copied the changer configuration from maverick, the pick up looks similar..the ash tray tuners,,,and this is SUPPOSED to be NEW IDEAS??.
Looks to me like a warmed up Maverick |
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