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Topic: Latency problems |
Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 4 Jan 2012 2:47 pm |
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Heretofore, after doing steel tracks in the studio, the only things I have had to worry about was the guy EQing the steel into a muddy mess. or forgetting to put reverb on my steel ("just cut it dry and I'll add reverb at mixdown"). Now twice in the past year, because of the advent of computer recording and pro tools, I have heard my tracks out of sinc in the finished product. In both cases, the engineer was not a musician and didn't know the difference. Anybody else experiencing this?
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LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Fender Twin Tone Master, Session 400, Harlow Dobro, R.Q.Jones Dobro |
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Steve Hinson
From:
Hendersonville Tn USA
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Posted 5 Jan 2012 7:31 am
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| Clyde,I've had that happen once...for some reason,the engineer in California didn't line my steel track up with the session he imported it to...and wasn't able to hear it!I heard it as soon as I heard the finished CD...out of three songs,it only happened on one track...I guess we have to remember that all engineers ain't musicians...the steel track was OBVIOUSLY out of sync,but could have been fixed using the"Nudge"function in PT...guess neither the artist nor the engineer noticed!Too bad... |
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Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 5 Jan 2012 8:43 am
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Thanks for your reply Steve. Likewise, when I pointed it out, he said "sounds fine to me, the steel is in there." Of course, it sounded like I had no sense of timing. This is a problem when someone may reference our recorded work for considering using us on a project.
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LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Fender Twin Tone Master, Session 400, Harlow Dobro, R.Q.Jones Dobro |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 5 Jan 2012 8:59 am
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This is not a "latency" problem, if it's just that the steel track was not imported correctly and/or lined up with the existing recording.
Latency can cause the same thing when you are recording but you would hear it when you played back what you recorded in reference to the other music track.
When I track for someone else, I make sure I'm in sync (lined up) before I export and send the track to the other studio. |
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Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 5 Jan 2012 11:14 am
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Thanks Jack, I have experienced that too. I assumed latency was the correct term, because when I explained it to another engineer, he referred to it that way. In fact, on another session at a home studio with an inexperienced operator (I won't call him an engineer), he never could line the tracks up. I have since declined any work there.
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LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Fender Twin Tone Master, Session 400, Harlow Dobro, R.Q.Jones Dobro |
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Steve Hinson
From:
Hendersonville Tn USA
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Posted 5 Jan 2012 5:47 pm
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Clyde...best way I have found is to tell them"import my track...don't mess with the count,just import my track from the beginning and we'll be fine!"Some of these guys are wanting to make"rocket surgery"out of country music...if they will import what you send them to exactly what they sent you,and don't be chopping around on anything,it'll work...like you said though,you'd think they could hear it and line it up!
I had Curtis Wright in here about a year and a half ago and we cut a bunch of tracks on old country songs...he speaks very highly of you....we need to finish that stuff up one of these days...take care,Clyde. |
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Steve Hinson
From:
Hendersonville Tn USA
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Posted 5 Jan 2012 5:50 pm
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| One more thing,Clyde...if it sounds ok when you leave there,and off time when you hear it later,sounds to me like it gets moved some way or another...Pro Tools has been known to have a mind of its own...I'm about halfway scared of it! |
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Joachim Kettner
From:
Germany
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Posted 6 Jan 2012 12:07 am
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The recording guy promised me to ad reverb on the steel also. He took the signal from the "Preamp Out" of my amplifier. Although it's no the greatest playing, it would have sounded better had he kept his promise. (It's not me and my Sierra on this clip, but I was on the recording).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UV6M9RWsg1M
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Fender Kingman, Sierra Crown D-10, Evans Amplifier, Soup Cube. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 7 Jan 2012 3:11 am
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| Steve Hinson wrote: |
| Clyde...best way I have found is to tell them"import my track...don't mess with the count,just import my track from the beginning and we'll be fine! |
Yes , excellent comment and advice, beat me to it !. Good call Steve !
When I receive a track via Email or FTP, I dump into PT and work with the entire track length from start to finish. I send back the Steel track based on the exact same track length, start to finish, the clients understand that all they have to do is " NOT EDIT" the length of the track in their session until they get the track back from me and dumped into the session. Now they can do anything they want as it is lined up perfectly.
It's not a bad idea to remind them of this during the process. In this scenario discussed it appears that the engineer did some cuts and the Steel track import was not actually lined up with the session track. I hate it when that happens !
.
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Steve Hinson
From:
Hendersonville Tn USA
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Posted 7 Jan 2012 6:26 am
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| Yes,Tony...that's all they have to do...but some of these guys are trying to use Pro Tools as a video game or something,it seems...I have found that the best way to use Pro Tools is like a tape machine...just record! |
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Steve Hinson
From:
Hendersonville Tn USA
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Posted 7 Jan 2012 6:39 am
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It should also be mentioned that bit rate,etc.is important(24/48 etc)...that will affect playback speed and so forth...the more I do this the better I get at it...
The only stumper I have encountered is having some files come out distorted and jittery...PTLE apparently does not like having other Firewire stuff(CD burners etc.) turned on while recording...I should have known this...in my haste to become rich and famous,I didn't read all the directions... |
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Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 7 Jan 2012 6:39 am
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Thanks guys for the advice on sending the tracks back after overdubbing, but in my latest incicdent, the guy was recording a band I was helping do a live CD at a club. He was recording on a laptop of some sort. He sent me a copy and about half my tracks were out of sinc.
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LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Fender Twin Tone Master, Session 400, Harlow Dobro, R.Q.Jones Dobro |
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Steve Hinson
From:
Hendersonville Tn USA
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Posted 7 Jan 2012 6:48 am
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| Not trying to use up all b0b's bandwidth...I keep remembering stuff...even a USB flash drive can cause problems with PTLE...best not to have any peripherals running when recording or bouncing tracks... |
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Steve Hinson
From:
Hendersonville Tn USA
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Posted 7 Jan 2012 6:49 am
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| Clyde,were you playing live with the band while he was recording? |
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Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 7 Jan 2012 7:04 am
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That's right, Steve.
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LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Fender Twin Tone Master, Session 400, Harlow Dobro, R.Q.Jones Dobro |
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Steve Hinson
From:
Hendersonville Tn USA
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Posted 7 Jan 2012 7:15 am
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Clyde,if all the other tracks were in sync except the steel,I gotta believe your track got moved during a later process(Mixing,mastering,bouncing)...like I said,it ain't impossible!PT can seem to be possessed at times...
Anyway,that's what I think happened...if everything was recorded at the same time on the same computer,and one track is out of sync,that one track(steel) must have gotten nudged out of sync at a later time...if anybody else has another theory,I'd sure love to hear it!
Last edited by Steve Hinson on 7 Jan 2012 7:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Steve Hinson
From:
Hendersonville Tn USA
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Posted 7 Jan 2012 7:20 am
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| BTW Clyde,I misunderstood the situation...for some reason I thought you were referring to overdubbing...my apologies! |
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Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 7 Jan 2012 7:40 am
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Steve, I do appreciate your input. Yes, this has turned into a discussion of sending back tracks that have been overdubbed, which is not the case, but is nevertheless very helpful. In this live recording, the guy sent the tracks to me after recording for evaluating. Some other tracks, notably the lead guitar were out of sinc on some songs. When I pointed this out, he said "Well, that is easily fixed", but the question for me is how could I properly "evaluate" it this way. It was apparent that he did not catch it, and would have been left like this. In other cases at home studios, I have had to point out that tracks were out of sinc. I do recording work at several professional studios, but quite a number of projects that are done in someone's home studio where the operator is new to the process. The purpose of my original post was to point out another issue we steelers were going to have to deal with that affected perception of our work. All the responses have been enlightening.
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LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Fender Twin Tone Master, Session 400, Harlow Dobro, R.Q.Jones Dobro |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 7 Jan 2012 9:22 am
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I also misunderstood Clyde's scenario. I am thinking now that the engineer got himself into a "file displacement" situation by editing and moving things around, easy to do if you are not careful, because when the intitial track was recorded it was in perfect synch. Some "MANMADE" operation" caused it to change,! And sadly, I can say, I have been there, it's an ugly place to be when fooling with tracks and moving things around. That's why on page one it says, backup your session file before you start editing, evidently the guy that wrote that has been there too ! 
t
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Steve Hinson
From:
Hendersonville Tn USA
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Posted 7 Jan 2012 10:00 am
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| ALWAYS back up sessions...the importance of this cannot be overstated... |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 8 Jan 2012 12:53 am
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Wow... you guys are now talking about at least three different things...
"Latency" refers to the offset in timing between what is input or played into the DAW (ProTools in this case) versus what is heard through the monitoring system while recording. A common cause of latency problems is setting the input buffer to a higher setting, making your tracks sound "late" in the headphones or monitors while recording. Tracking through an external board or with low latency settings can help or eliminate that issue.
It sounds like what Clyde is talking about is a misplacement of the steel track against the other tracks in the mix after recording or track importation. There can be various reasons for this, most of which are OPERATOR ERROR, and not results of "the advent of computer recording".
The suggestions about pre-planning for importing tracks directly using a solid "zero" reference are right on the money.
While other instruments are often defined by the transients and more easily lined up to the groove or downbeat of the song, Steel parts are by nature kind of snaky and greasy, and it can be very hard to tell where the original downbeat reference was, especially if you didn't record the session. The best way to avoid problems is to have a discussion with the engineer about how best to line up your tracks if you are importing the tracks... and if they were recorded in the studio to previous tracks on ProTools , they will have an "original time stamp" accessible through the spot mode that the engineer can use to line them up with other tracks. If he loses track of how to do that, you probably want to rethink working at that studio.
If you are playing to tracks recorded at another studio, make sure to start the steel track at the EXACT same point as the earliest tracks in the mix- whether that's where you start playing or not. If your track starts at some random place in the song where you first started playing, upon importation to the master session, the engineer will have no idea where you started.
It's not computer recording at fault. It's improperly understood computer recording. |
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Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 8 Jan 2012 5:57 pm
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Lots of info in that post Mark. Thanks. Though I displayed my ignorance, I do now understand much more about the Pro Tools process. I have experienced several of the scenarios you guys have described, just didn't understand the causes of each. I do stand by my observation that we are now having to deal with problems we didn't experience before "the advent of computer recording", whether it is operator error or not. If the tracks are out of time, we will certainly get the blame for it by the end listener.
_________________
LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Fender Twin Tone Master, Session 400, Harlow Dobro, R.Q.Jones Dobro |
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