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Topic: A Lesson Learned about Effects |
Mickey Adams
From:
Bandera Texas
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Posted 15 Dec 2011 11:04 pm |
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Im sure we all agree that effects improve our tone, and are an integral part of the ideal tone, that we hear in our head. Th
at being said, 99% of the music that we hear in recordings, and on the radio, on CD's etc.. has been "mastered" by professional engineers that have one goal...Take a raw product, enhance it, save it, and produce a pleasing product, and the use of effects is a very large part of that process.
I worked in the studio during my younger years much more than I have in the last 15..and I always struggled to acquire a pleasing tone over the headphones, which I believed would motivate me to play my best. This was directly related as well, to my ability to effectively recreate what I heard in my head..and that...Is, where the need to be creative in a sterile environment, such as a studio, or home recording environment is undergoing a drastic change for me.
Most engineers want to record a DRY signal...No effects at all...For most of us we shutter at the idea of playing our steel in a live setting, without delay, and SOME reverb. And, rightly so, because they recreate the sound of enclosed environments where sound waves interact with reflective surfaces, become much more pleasing to the listener, less abrasive to us, and overall, more robust as a whole.
I recently posted a pic of my recently upgraded home studio where I have spent countless hours experimenting with every nuance of recording my steel, and electric guitars. With the help of my friend Mark Tulbert, I have begun to understand why, engineers want to record a sterile input signal..
In my early 30s, I came very close to qualifying for a pro golf ticket...My handicap was scratch, and my swing was fluid...and the reason for this was that I insisted on hitting forged, non-forgiving irons..They FORCED Me to make a good swing...and when I did, I was rewarded with exceptional control over my shots..I now believe that this is another avenue to improving my steel guitar playing..
Ive been struggling with my tone, even though I have EVERY major amplification tool known to man..Trying to keep an open mind...Ive realized..."it aint the bow, its the Indian"..
There were many nights while onstage, I would turn to my amp and turn OFF all the effects. What I found was that the clarity that I needed was there...and it forced me to make a "good swing" and I was changing the way I addressed my instrument..
The very definition of LEARNING is...Input that changes the way you THINK about a given task, and changing the way you approach executing it...
I very rarely give advice unless asked...But I feel that this can be an important factor for those of you that do tend to RELY too heavily on outboard gear to enhance perceptibly,and thinking its improving your skills....Turn it all off once in a while...get comfortable with your BARE pre's and power amps....After a few days...see the changes in your technique that these "unforgiving clubs" will give you....
Happy Holiday from TX...Mickey
_________________
ARTIST RELATIONS: MSA GUITARS
2017 MSA LEGEND XL D10, S10, Studio Pro S12 EXE9
Mullen G2, Rittenberry S10, Infinity D10, Zumsteel 8+9
Anderson, Buscarino, Fender, Roman Guitars, Sarno Octal, Revelation Preamps, BJS BARS, Lots of Blackface Fenders!
Last edited by Mickey Adams on 17 Dec 2011 5:45 am; edited 5 times in total |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 16 Dec 2011 12:51 am
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Excellent advice  |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 16 Dec 2011 1:29 am
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Great thread indeed, Mickey.
For years most of the sessions I did were for engineers who wanted to track dry, as you know, to be able to blend their idea of proper ambience in during the mixing stage. Much of the time they would pipe some decent 'verb or delay into the cans or monitors for me to track with. I never did really enjoy playing completely dry, but there were times when I wanted it that way to be able to really focus on blending and intonation, especially if there were any problematic other instruments (or vocals!)
The funny thing is that more and more frequently as time goes by, I find engineers and producers wanting to hear my idea of ambience and even stereo positioning at the tracking stage, I think because there are denser arrangements these days with more choices about ambience and blend being made before mixdown. At the same time, they're wanting more discreet tracks for editing choices.
It's a funny world.
I vary my levels of 'verb and delay quite a bit live, but rarely want to do completely without... |
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Mike Kowalik
From:
San Antonio,Texas
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Posted 16 Dec 2011 3:13 am effects.........
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Mickey...I agree 100%.Years ago I was caught up in the effects rat race.I had all the top stuff in a 4-6 space rack and thought I was cool.Then one night on a job my effects went out for some reason and I couldn't figure out why and time spent troubleshooting.So I unplugged all that stuff and just played with reverb and was very pleased with what I heard.
From time to time I do use a little delay but I always come back to just reverb......especially after going out to hear the tone Jim Loessberg gets with his wrap and road worn Nashville 400.
Like you said...."it ain't the bow it's the Indian." |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 16 Dec 2011 6:47 am
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Just an awesome delivery of some wonderful advice given here by Mickey.
_________________
Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 16 Dec 2011 7:56 am
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| Another thing to practice with is using no vibrato- real truth serum ~ |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 16 Dec 2011 8:15 am
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Great advice Mickey, I sorta did this a few years back and really improved my touch. Now, I never use effects, just a touch of reverb.
_________________
Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Mickey Adams
From:
Bandera Texas
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Posted 16 Dec 2011 8:29 am
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Truedat Jimmy!..Im also taking a much harder look at the Newman tunings, and the use of the Stroboflip.
Ive mapped all the strings that are affected by cabinet drop on my Mullens, (both), and I am contemplating creating a new tuning ref for it...Ill be happy to share this when I finish...!!
As for our friend and mentor Jim Loessberg....The first time I heard him play I was really impressed..The man has got GREAT technique and tone...!!!
_________________
ARTIST RELATIONS: MSA GUITARS
2017 MSA LEGEND XL D10, S10, Studio Pro S12 EXE9
Mullen G2, Rittenberry S10, Infinity D10, Zumsteel 8+9
Anderson, Buscarino, Fender, Roman Guitars, Sarno Octal, Revelation Preamps, BJS BARS, Lots of Blackface Fenders! |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 16 Dec 2011 8:37 am
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| It has been my experience that no one set tuning works for all steels as they each have their own unique characteristics including cabinet drop that affect the tuning of that particular instrument. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Dale Rottacker
From:
Walla Walla Washington, USA
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Jerome Hawkes
From:
Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 16 Dec 2011 10:25 am
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i have noticed that players are now running quite a bit of delay on their sound, which works nice for the really slow ballads and in general is pleasing - here is the rub though - yeah, the steel guy is running heavy delay and 2 other effects, the lead guitar guy has 20 effect pedals, the rhy gtr has 5 - the bass and drums are compressed, everyone is setting up their sound independent of the overall BAND sound and it ends up sounding like MUD.
_________________
'65 Sho-Bud D-10 Permanent • '54 Fender Dual-8 • Clinesmith T-8 • '38 Ric Bakelite • '92 Emmons D-10 Legrande II |
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Cliff Kane
From:
the late great golden state
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Posted 16 Dec 2011 11:50 am
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When I was working in studios (a long time ago) we had good sounding rooms and EMT plates, so why use amp verb, etc. As mentioned, the player got a headphone mix that he liked, and we would use a close mic or direct dry track and a room track and add the rest in the mix. However, often when heavy studio players would come in they usually had their racks of gear and could call up a finished sound, but these were guys who were in-and-out for quick tracking or overdub sessions. I think for live work in clubs a lot of players don't listen to the room and they end up playing through their default effects setting which often conflict with the sound of the room.
Last edited by Cliff Kane on 16 Dec 2011 12:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mickey Adams
From:
Bandera Texas
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Posted 16 Dec 2011 11:52 am
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This is definitely another issue that I should have included in this thread B0b...I have to TOTALLY agree with you on this one too...I listen to all of my tracks in solo mode and this is the second "BIG ISSUE"...I have since removed the volume pedal from the loop by using a slight amount of compression on my Avalon Pre-amp to control the peak signal to the AD converters, with the pedal in a static position..The result is a much more fluid and contigous, well defined passage in just about every take...
Ive taken a chorus from one song, and looped it no less than 500 times by now...continually tweaking, and changing gears....
And just FYI...Here are just a few of the combinations ive tried:
Mesa Boogie Preamp: Direct
Telonics Preamp: Direct 1/4, and XLR bypass to AD, pedal looped, and direct in
Roland 80XL: Direct, Micd w/SM57, Condensers,
Telonics Pre 1000: Direct 1/4, XLR Bypass to AD
Revelation: Direct 1/4, XLR bypass to AD, both pedal looped and direct to preamp
Mesa Boogie MKV, Line Out, Micd 57
Mesa Boogie MKII Simulclass: Direct, Micd 57
Boss GT10 Guitar Processor: Stereo In
Of all these combos, the Telonics and the Avalon 737 come out on top, Revelation running a VERY Close second...But this is just the beginning!!....
_________________
ARTIST RELATIONS: MSA GUITARS
2017 MSA LEGEND XL D10, S10, Studio Pro S12 EXE9
Mullen G2, Rittenberry S10, Infinity D10, Zumsteel 8+9
Anderson, Buscarino, Fender, Roman Guitars, Sarno Octal, Revelation Preamps, BJS BARS, Lots of Blackface Fenders! |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 16 Dec 2011 1:27 pm
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| Oiy vey! |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 16 Dec 2011 2:31 pm
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| Excellent. Jim Palenscar, outstanding points on vibrato and tuning. I thoroughly agree. I played a large venue once where a fellow steel player told me my notes weren't clear because I had too much reverb. I didn't realize that the house sound had added reverb through the mains on top of mine. I turned mine off and my friend told me it was clear as a bell. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 16 Dec 2011 3:20 pm
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| Sounds ( ) like you're getting closer and closer to how I play/record steel (and most else for that matter): PU matching --> slight compression --> VP (mainly to rest my foot on but good to have when I want to "express" myself) --> track and/or effectless/neutral amplification. Nothing to hide my less than perfect playing behind, and the instrument better sound good since that's all there is. |
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Mickey Adams
From:
Bandera Texas
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Posted 16 Dec 2011 9:34 pm
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Thanks for your ALL of you guys inputting here..Being able, or should I say WILLING to share what we learn is what the SGF is all about...Mr VanAllen, I understand my buddy Capt Patrick had a very good visit with you recently...im going down to Destin in a few days to spend some time with him too..
Ricky Davis...Im inspired by you EVERY time I hear you play, and I thank you for your comment here...
Jimmy Im just opening up to the differences in all guitars..thanks to you my Red 84 Mullen is now in pieces again..LMAO...I HAVE TO FIND OUT WHAT MAKES IT SO GOOD SOUNDING....Arghhhhhh!...and WHY it has no Cab drop...I recorded it earlier today and although the Newman tunings didnt work for it...the tone was OMG!!!!...
Ive only scratched the surface with my recording technique, but Im always happy to share everything I learn, and I REALLY enjoy the swapping of ideas here....
_________________
ARTIST RELATIONS: MSA GUITARS
2017 MSA LEGEND XL D10, S10, Studio Pro S12 EXE9
Mullen G2, Rittenberry S10, Infinity D10, Zumsteel 8+9
Anderson, Buscarino, Fender, Roman Guitars, Sarno Octal, Revelation Preamps, BJS BARS, Lots of Blackface Fenders! |
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Scott Henderson
From:
Camdenton, Missouri, USA
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Posted 16 Dec 2011 10:26 pm
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In all aspects of playing/recording......your output is only as good as your input.....Good thread Mickey. Thanks for starting it.....This is what the forum should always be about......LEARNING.....
_________________
D-10 JCH Dekley U-12 D-8 Magnatone Mullen RP Evans RE 200 profex 2 BJS bars
Dentyne gum (peppermint) |
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Hal Higgins
From:
Denham Springs, LA
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Posted 17 Dec 2011 5:53 pm
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| Mark van Allen wrote: |
Great thread indeed, Mickey.
For years most of the sessions I did were for engineers who wanted to track dry, as you know, to be able to blend their idea of proper ambience in during the mixing stage. Much of the time they would pipe some decent 'verb or delay into the cans or monitors for me to track with. I never did really enjoy playing completely dry, but there were times when I wanted it that way to be able to really focus on blending and intonation, especially if there were any problematic other instruments (or vocals!)
The funny thing is that more and more frequently as time goes by, I find engineers and producers wanting to hear my idea of ambience and even stereo positioning at the tracking stage, I think because there are denser arrangements these days with more choices about ambience and blend being made before mixdown. At the same time, they're wanting more discreet tracks for editing choices.
It's a funny world.
I vary my levels of 'verb and delay quite a bit live, but rarely want to do completely without... |
I completely agree with both of you.
_________________
HAL...Excel D-10 w/ 8 & 5. SteelSeat.com w/back,SteelSeat.com Pedal Board on Legs with Quilter Tone Block 200 amp, Boss GE 7, Boss DD 3, Boss RV 6, Boss RT-20 Hilton Expression Pedal, Evans Cabinet with 4 ohm Eminence 15" speaker. BJS birthstone bar, Powder coated Tone bar by Michael Hillman. Dunlop Coated finger picks and Zookies L30 thumb picks. |
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Ryan Barwin
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 18 Dec 2011 4:12 pm
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I agree that it's best to record dry when you can trust the person mixing it to make you sound good, but if not then it's best to have as much control as possible over your sound.
I tend to record at studios that aren't used to recording steel guitar, I prefer to use delay, reverb, (and whatever other effects I'm gonna use) and EQ it how I want so the initial recorded sound is essentially what would be on the final product. Sometimes I even adjust the mic placement.
They may be good producers/engineers, but being in Ontario, Canada, they don't necessarily have much experience with steel guitars and want to record it like a regular electric guitar which doesn't sound too good.
If I give them a dry signal, it'll likely end up over-compressed, excessively saturated in reverb, and overly trebly or muddy. Or they may just leave it dry which could be just as bad. Obviously it'll still be affected through mixing and mastering, but at least they won't have to process it much.
_________________
www.pedalsteel.ca |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 18 Dec 2011 4:39 pm
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Great advice from all. I have always enjoyed working in the studio but, unfortunately, outside of Texas and Tennessee there are very few engineers who really understand how to EQ and manage fx on a steel guitar track. There is one pretty good guy near HotLanta (hi Mark .) -- but he doesn't count 'cause he's the studio owner, engineer, AND steel player.
I'm decidedly of the less is best school when it comes to what gets printed to the track. Regardless of the technology, it is still MUCH easier to add verb or delay to a dry track than to REMOVE it from a wet one. As for EQ I sometimes bring the engineer a present of one of my instrumental CDs for reference. They usually at least PRETEND to appreciate it and it has made a difference, both in terms of results and good will.
The EQ is usually the biggest issue for me. People seem to want to hear the steel guitar waaaaay heavy on the high end and thin in the low mids and lows. Some of this is necessary to fit sonically in the track but sometimes it's just ignorance on the part of the engineer and/or producer. If I'm playing through an amp I just invite the engineer to listen to what's coming out of the amp and to eq the track as close to that as possible.
Whenever someone else has artistic control you're rarely going to get it exactly like you envision it.
Just MHO.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12 |
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Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
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Posted 18 Dec 2011 10:30 pm
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Never print with effects unless you are sure that you are sure that you are sure that you are that...it sounds right. I only turn the amp on when its cold haha. I read somewhere that practicing acoustically improves your intonation, but it also saves electricity! All those effects generate a good BTU 
Clete |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 18 Dec 2011 10:40 pm
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Thanks for the props, Larry. Of course I get to experiment with tones and ambience on my own tracks, but I'm surprised by how often the final mix is pretty decent at the local studios. In fact, I have to be a bit more careful with the "classic country" guys, I think they've been accustomed to the overly bright steel sounds they've heard in the past.
The real surprise to me is how fat the steel tones end up on tracks that are decidedly "un-country" on sessions I've done for bands like Rehab and Manchester Orchestra.
I always feel like I'm fortunate to have the work, and after all, it's their record...  |
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Doug Palmer
From:
Greensboro, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 19 Dec 2011 12:33 pm Effects
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I personally just use a little reverb from my NV-112. I concentrate more on tone and intonation. Usually the more stomp boxes a player uses the worse the player. I know several Lead players that never settle down and play because they are always messing with their stuff. There is no magic button that's going to make you a great player. Listen to Jerry Byrd.
Doug
_________________
Emmons D-10, ST-10,LD-10 III, NV-112,Fender Deluxe Reverb. Authorized wholesale dealer musicorp.com! |
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