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Topic: 6th string on E9 problem with G lever |
Joe Babb
From:
Knoxville, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 7 Dec 2011 9:31 am |
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| I'm hoping that someone has encountered this problem. I have an Emmons LeGrande II with a B/G split. The B pedal raises string 6 a half step. The G lever by itself lowers string 6 a whole step. Taken together, the B pedal and G lever lowers string 6 a half step. The problem is that when the G lever is used, string 6 comes back a little sharp. It's only a few cents but enough to be irritating. If the B pedal is pressed and released, string 6 comes back to G# like it ought to. I thought at first that something in the linkage was causing the B pedal linkage to hang a little when the G lever was engaged. Loosening the nylon tuning nut for the B pedal way off has some affect on the problem. If this was a case where string 6 came back a little flat then I would know that the return spring might need tightening or that the changer was gummed up. I've had both of those experiences in the past. But why would a string come back sharp after being lowered? I should mention that string 6 is 22 gage plain. Suggestions? |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 7 Dec 2011 9:58 am Re: 6th string on E9 problem with G lever
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[quote="Joe Babb" ...But why would a string come back sharp after being lowered?...[/quote]
This is normal on keyed guitar.
When you lower a string, some length of the string rolls over the roller at the bridge, toward the tuning key.
When you release the lower, not all of the string that went over the roller will come back.
Now the string is sharp.
Hitting the B pedal takes it back to the setting it was at when you tuned it, effectively re-setting the string length.
If you check with a tuner you will see this is true of pretty much all lowers. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 7 Dec 2011 10:05 am
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Well stated, Pete.
What can you do about it?
Make sure the roller moves freely, and maybe put some oil in it.
Change from your plain string to a wound .022. |
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Joe Babb
From:
Knoxville, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 7 Dec 2011 10:18 am
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Roller is free and oiled. I always check that as I find that they are often gummed up on many of the guitars I work on. Dust collects, and if the rollers are not cleaned and oiled when strings are changed eventually they don't roll as they should.
Changing to a .022 wound string is not an option as I have found that it makes it very difficult or impossible to get all raises and lowers to work within the limits of the bell cranks. The 6th string is quite sensitive in tuning with the key and I guess that might be due to being a plain string and probably contributes to my problem. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 7 Dec 2011 10:49 am
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| Joe Babb wrote: |
| The 6th string is quite sensitive in tuning with the key and I guess that might be due to being a plain string and probably contributes to my problem. |
Everything is worse with the plain string: cabinet drop, tone (IMO), inconsistent pulls to pitch, and the over-return problem that you have. Too bad your guitar won't handle the wound string.
Franklin guitars have a system that fixes the over-return problem very effectively. |
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Joe Babb
From:
Knoxville, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 7 Dec 2011 11:13 am
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| One reply I got via email recommended string compensators. Anybody know how they work? |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 7 Dec 2011 11:35 am
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Compensators are usually extra rods to raise strings that go flat when a pedal is pushed. They are on the strings that are not affected by the pedals. Like, some have them on the 7th string F# because it goes a little flat due to cabinet drop, and the compensator brings it back up. I don't think that is your problem. It just sounds like string hysterysis (sp?) where the string doesn't return to pitch every time it is lowered and is pretty common on most guitars. Exactly how far out is it when it returns? A few cents is pretty normal, and I wouldn't go jacking around with the guitar.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 7 Dec 2011 11:42 am
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"Compensator" is a vague word that means many different things, including somwtimes the Franklin system. You can see and read about the Franklins somewhere on this Forum. Basically it provides an adjustable cushion for the raise and lower bars before they come to rest on the hard metal stop that they eventually return to when you release a pedal or lever. As the O-ring gives way, the roller nut moves that last little bit to equalize tension on both sides ot the roller.
It would probably be easier to find a Franklin guitar (not easy) than to to install something like that on your guitar. |
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Bobby Boggs
From:
Upstate SC.
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Posted 7 Dec 2011 7:02 pm
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Lower return compensators are an option on Emmons LeGrandes and most major brands of keyed guitars. The Carter being one exception.Yes you can still install them and Emmons has the parts.
bb |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 7 Dec 2011 7:46 pm
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Joe, it is stupid question time again. The next time it does that, look at the changer and see whether the raise finger didn't return right or whether the lower finger didn't return right.
That will tell you where to look for the problem
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 7 Dec 2011 7:49 pm
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Bobby Boggs said:
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Lower return compensators are an option on Emmons LeGrandes |
Please explain. I've never heard of a compensator that returns your over-returned string to it's original pitch. I am very interested.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Brett Lanier
From:
Madison, TN
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Posted 7 Dec 2011 8:01 pm
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Jerry and I installed lower return compensators on strings 4, 6, & 8 on my Fessenden. It was pretty easy. We used LeGrand bellcranks with pushpull collars on the hooked end of the rods to keep them totally still. The rod goes to the lower arm of the changer with an o-ring between the changer and nylon tuner. The other important part is that the bellcranks need to be attached to a cross shaft that is in a fixed position, it can't move at all. I think we drove screws straight through the cross shaft and into the body.
It works really well. When the string returns sharp, you just tune it out with the new nylon. As long as you have an extra spot for a lower, you should be able to do it.
Last edited by Brett Lanier on 7 Dec 2011 8:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 7 Dec 2011 8:14 pm
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On a Zum, it's a pull rod that attaches to the center strap. A pretty much set it and forget it item.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 7 Dec 2011 8:20 pm
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| Quote: |
| When the string returns sharp, you just tune it out with the new nylon. |
Are you saying that every time I lower the string I have to tune the nylon tuner? Wouldn't just be easier to press the B pedal, which always brings it back. My Carter comes back so close to pitch, I am not worried about it myself, but I would like to know more about the specifics... Maybe some pics.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 7 Dec 2011 8:26 pm
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No, Richard. you tune it ONCE. Basically, the compensator (I think Bruce called it "anti-detuner") stops the lower finger from overshooting neutral. THE ROD NEVER MOVES.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Bill Lowe
From:
Connecticut
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Joe Babb
From:
Knoxville, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 8 Dec 2011 7:50 am
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Everybody,
Thanks for the education. The link to C Dixon's thread on the subject cleared up many of my questions. I am always amazed at the complexity and nuances that is the Pedal Steel Guitar. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 8 Dec 2011 8:07 am Re: 6th string on E9 problem with G lever
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| Pete Burak wrote: |
| Joe Babb wrote: |
| ...But why would a string come back sharp after being lowered?... |
This is normal on keyed guitar.
When you lower a string, some length of the string rolls over the roller at the bridge, toward the tuning key.
When you release the lower, not all of the string that went over the roller will come back.
Now the string is sharp.
If you check with a tuner you will see this is true of pretty much all lowers. |
Huh??!?!?!
Methinks you have looked at the wrong end.
The problem lies in the lower finger going past neutral if released before, or simultaneously, with a same-string raise (sometimes without needing the raise, just on its own). If the problem lay at the keyhead, then the compensator/anti-detuner wouldn't address the problem.
Personally, I think keyless guitars look funny. And my bars would fall to the floor.   (notice the Smileys )
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 8 Dec 2011 8:26 am Re: 6th string on E9 problem with G lever
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
Methinks you have looked at the wrong end.
The problem lies in the lower finger going past neutral if released before, or simultaneously, with a same-string raise (sometimes without needing the raise, just on its own). If the problem lay at the keyhead, then the compensator/anti-detuner wouldn't address the problem.
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Actually, Pete Burak had it right.
The lower bar cannot go "past neutral" as you suggest. There is a firm stop on all guitars -- except those that have the "compensator" which provides a soft stop _before_ reaching the firm stop. The soft material slowly gives way.
You are right in saying that it doesn't address the problem. Instead, it addresses (and cures) the symptom of the problem.
BTW, you can't fix the problem with a perfect roller nut, because of stiffness in the string where it bends to go over the roller. The string tends not to return all the way at the roller, because it tends to stay bent at that spot, and resist bending at the new spot, for a while. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 8 Dec 2011 9:30 am
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OK, then educate me. If it doesn't go past neutral, then how does that fixed pull rod work to solve the problem?
Most, or at least many, guitar makers put that rod on there to fix the problem.
If I have misunderstood the problem, What goes on and how does that rod fix it?
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 8 Dec 2011 9:55 am
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
OK, then educate me. If it doesn't go past neutral, then how does that fixed pull rod work to solve the problem?
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I'll try... the fixed pull rod goes thru one of the holes in the lower bar (or raise bar) just like any other pull rod. It has a nylon tuning nut just like any other pull rod. But between the nylon nut and the lower bar is a rubber O-ring that is not rigid.
When you lower, that O-ring expands a little.
When you release the lower, the lower bar moves back toward the rest (unlowered, neutral) position, and just before reaching its hard stop, it pushes into the O-ring. You can adjust this spot with the tuning nut that pushes on the O-ring, so it stops right on pitch, instead of over-returning.
After a few seconds, or faster when you raise that same string, the O-ring compresses, and the lower bar eventually comes to rest against the hard stop. The idea is that as the O-ring compress, the string moves back over the roller nut at about the same time. |
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Bobby Boggs
From:
Upstate SC.
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Posted 8 Dec 2011 10:24 am
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This is new to me if I understood it correctly?
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| I'll try... the fixed pull rod goes thru one of the holes in the lower bar (or raise bar) |
I always thought that a lower return comp must be connected to the lowering side of the changer.Hence the string returns sharp. It needs to be temporarily flattened.
bb |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 8 Dec 2011 11:17 am
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| Bobby Boggs wrote: |
I always thought that a lower return comp must be connected to the lowering side of the changer.Hence the string returns sharp. It needs to be temporarily flattened.
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Yes, that is how I understand it. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 8 Dec 2011 2:05 pm
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Thanks for the info guys. I didn't think it was possible, but I am now a smarter man. 
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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