Chart for note-range of all string gauges to raise/lower?

Butch Pytko · From: Orlando, Florida, USA

Is there a chart that shows the note-range for all of the string gauges for raising & lowering? Usually I've read info written on how many half tones(1 fret) or whole tones(2 frets) a pedal/knee lever is raising or lowering. But, I can't remember ever seeing a chart showing the maximum note or fret-range for each string gauge.

Stan Schober · From: Cahokia, Illinois, USA

It's probably because those ranges would change dependant on the scale length of the string.

Strings on a 25" scale would stretch differently than on a 22" scale.
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Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

And some changers have more travel than others. Most strings can probably move a minor third. That said, I have run into difficulty on the C6 neck of my MSA dropping 8 to G. It stops 20 cents short, then pulls sharp
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
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Richard Damron · From: Gallatin, Tennessee, USA (deceased)

Butch -

In spite of exhaustive searches, I have not come upon a chart such as you describe. There is, however, an easy alternative.

The governing quantity regarding how much a string can be raised is the breaking strength of the string. General consensus is that strings should be tensioned (ROUGHLY) between 25 and 30 pounds - at rest. If raising a string, say, by a minor third approaches the breaking strength of the string then you are on thin ice, indeed. There's no limit to how much one can lower a string (reduced tension) unless you prefer a lifeless, floppy string having no tonal character. Personal preference.

Go to:

http://liutaiomottola.com/

You will find an easy, interactive section in which string weight/unit length can be obtained from the D'Addario site. Using this number, the scale length of the instrument, and the frequency of the note will yield the tension of the string. Mottola provides a chart of frequency versus pitch. You'll need it. Another section allows the quick determination of the breaking strength of a given string diameter. Comparing the two sets of numbers will provide a quick answer to the question.

It wouldn't take much of an effort to make up your own chart. String diameter versus pitch versus tension versus breaking strength. It's that quick and easy.

Respectfully,

Richard

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

I would recommend the string chart by John Ely.
www.hawaiiansteel.com/learning/gauges.php

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Richard, most changer mechanisms candidates move far enough to go from just above floppy to just below breaking, so that's only part of the equation. For steel, it appears the useful tone lower limit is around 15#. But I don't think many, if any, changers can go from 15 to 30.
If the OP was trying to figure out how much he can expect from a "statistically standard guitar," I dunno that such has been, or could reliably be, compiled.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Richard Damron · From: Gallatin, Tennessee, USA (deceased)

Lane -

I made the assumption (erroneous?) that the baseline for the discussion centered around the "standard" E9/C6 tunings. There is extremely close physical correlation 'twixt instruments from the manufacturers. A close friend characterizes that correlation as the "copy-cat" syndrome - what works for others must be what will work for me. These can rightfully be labeled "statistically standard guitars" since, most often, there's not a penny's worth of difference between them from a mechanical point of view - dimensions being essentially the same. Given that, one can make the calculations for the string diameters which are "normally" used in those tunings. Varying the string diameters from the "norm" will yield a set of numbers indicating which diameters are suitable for a given static pitch and raise/lower and taking tension definitely into account.

I mentioned my favorite phrase - "personal preference" in my post, above. We all know that a change in string diameter will manifest itself in a change of tonal character for a given pitch. Sometimes easily discernible, sometimes not. Depends upon your ears.

My guitar has a 24"scale length. I find that string tension varies between 25 and 28 pounds for the string diameters generally accepted as optimum for an E9 tuning as an example. This string tension is not engraved in stone. It is only through experimentation by which one determines the "best" condition - according to the players ears! To this end, a study of the parameters to be found in my reference, above, will be useful. I have actually done this, myself, in regards an unusual tuning that I've been working on. Of particular note is the fact that one must, ultimately, decide upon an average string tension as a starting point - a point of reference. In reviewing the data in my chart, I find that I am open to string tensions ranging from the low 20's to the low 30's with commensurate string diameters associated with a given (rough) tension. I am slowly working my way through the options and using my ear and a digital recorder as my guide. Have I "settled" upon an average tension for all strings? NO. Will I? Eventually.

I must issue a disclaimer: - I tend to be an egghead about such things. Most are not. Yet the fact remains that even a cursory exercise (versus my in-depth study) will be beneficial for anyone curious about the topic under discussion. As to the lower - "floppy string" limit - I find it somewhat nonsensical to lower a string equal to or below the pitch of the adjacent string hence a reduction in tension down to 15 pounds - from a nominal 25-28 pounds - is not even considered. However, the phrase "to each his own" trumps all things.

Being a very open-minded person, I gladly submit to the notion that there are small tonal differences between instruments which may skew any calculations slightly. Even so, a said cursory study will establish a foundation upon which anyone may begin to make intelligent decisions. I view it as a worthwhile effort while others may deem it a waste of time.

Our individual "mileage" does, indeed, vary - does it not?

Respectfully,

Richard

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

I'm noticing just between strings on both the Zum and MSA, some strings will be able to move farther than others, especially lowering, before return springs start pulling on the raise finger/ raising strings start pulling the lower finger. On my Zum, you can change tension on both helper springs and return springs, but the MSA doesn't have adjustable return springs and I've found no evidence of helper springs.
Donny suggests that I can find a weaker return spring so I can drop my C6 8th string to G: it stops about 20¢ short before the return spring picks up the raise finger.
Of course, that means between P4 and RKL I'm asking a major third between extremes.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Richard Damron · From: Gallatin, Tennessee, USA (deceased)

Lane -

I am definitely NOT an expert on the two machines that you describe. Intuition tells me that, if you were to find someone who knew them inside and out that they would have you start at some "ground zero" point and make adjustments from there.

Justification for my intuitive sense lies in the fact that, in a typical E9 tuning, there are a couple of places where the distance between the extremes is a minor third - with tuning not being a problem.

Then there is that "boo-wah" pedal, 10th string, on a typical C6 tuning. This lowers the string by a minor third to A while another pedal (5?) raises the same string by a whole tone to a D. That constitutes a 4th interval! This, obviously, raises the simple question:- If a 4th interval can be accomodated here then why not elsewhere?

I applaud your initiative to experiment with tunings. Too many folks just accept the "norm" and let it fly from there and without thought to how the machine can be made better so as to satisfy their own needs.

It would appear that all ya need is a slightly bigger hammer and beat this thing over the head - with help - and then you'll be home free. My best of luck to you.

Respectfully,

Richard

Bobby Bowman · From: Cypress, Texas, USA, R.I.P.

Lane,
Most likely the culprit is not the string, but the pull rod. I'm pretty sure the MSA has a 1/8" pull rod. Try a 7/64 or even a 3/32 pull rod and it should take care of your problem.
You also could open the changer hole a little with a larger drill bit. You'll need to use some "care" when doing this.
Also,,,,run the pull rod through the lowest hole in the actuator finger,,,,,you may have to open the stop a little too.
BB
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Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

So now you've made me curious
I may perform an experiment.
Manually push on the raise and lower fingers on each string on each axe, documenting the pitch at which the opposing finger says "that's far enough".
I expect noticeable variances, but probably less than 100¢ in each direction.
Although, having read the thread on thirteens as G#, I'll pass on confronting the raise limits of my 11s. I suspect the changer has more oomph than the strings. And Dale has the hockey mask this week.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Bobby, it appears in changer. The pull rod keeps pulling, the lower finger keeps moving, but the raise finger gets in on the act. Donny blames a return spring (I guess at a certain point, it stops going along for the ride, becomes a force input while the pullrod becomes a moving fulcrum).
, and that a slightly weaker spring would help.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Bobby Bowman · From: Cypress, Texas, USA, R.I.P.

Just try it,,,,you might be surprized. Surprised

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If you build 'em, build 'em good!
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Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Lower-return spring should be above or in line with the upper lower-rod on all-pull changers, to completely eliminate the "lower at some point starts to raise" problem. Alternatively the return spring should be much longer so as to reduce tension-raise on it when lowering. Whether or not any of these improvements can be introduced on a given PSG, I don't know.

I have introduced the "pull-rod in line with lower-return spring" for one otherwise impossible 'lower string by 5 half-notes' on my old Dekley, and tested it to 'lower string by 7 half-notes' just to test it in action. Works perfectly.

Bo Legg · Posted 26 Nov 2011 12:35 pm

I realize I greatly oversimplify here but we are dealing with a simple mechanical instrument not a quarter of a billion dollar bridge.
At times the Rio Grande River is on average less than two feet deep. A lot of folks have drowned in that river. Knowing where along the Rio Grande they drown would have been better information.
My point here is that it is more important to know what gauge string is not going to let me down (drown)
and is going to get me through the night on my PSG (River). For that I had to break (drown) a few strings trial and error.
Sources quoting math of averages and maximums applied to my PSG can only be viewed as vague benchmarks and about as useful as knowing the average depth of the Rio Grande River.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

True enough, Bo. but the OP wanted to know if a chart of what notes one could reasonably expect each string to stretch/relax to. AFAIK, such a chart doesn't exist.

Georg: Do you mean the return springs should mount between the upper and lower fingers? That's a crowded bit of real estate. I'm sure someone more clever than me could make it happen.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Lane, yes, that would be the ideal lower-return spring position, but it is too tight in there on most PSGs. A push-sleeve on the upper pull-rod can be used to move the lower-return spring out of the crowded changer-area and allow for a longer spring, a solution I am designing into my own one-off PSG.

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Bobby, what is the underlying theory as to why the larger diameter pull rod would make a difference? I don't see it.
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Bobby Bowman · From: Cypress, Texas, USA, R.I.P.

smaller,,,,not larger.
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If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!
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Bobby Bowman · From: Cypress, Texas, USA, R.I.P.

Sometimes, considering the "ark" of the finger, along with the size of the hole in the changer finger and the size of the pull rod, the pull rod will actually bind against the finger (top to bottom of the hole) and start pulling on the raise finger prematurely.
Most of the time, when I reduce the diamature of the pull rod, it "frees up" the changer movement, giving it some "room to breeth", so to speak.
It hasn't been a 100% cure, but it has worked most of the time for me.
_________________
If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!
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Marvin Born · From: Ohio, USA

Lane,

Regarding the string six, C6 tuning issue, I had exactly the same problem on my Williams D-12X. I tried several different brand strings and mechanical changes, but the problem remained.

However, The solution use was to use a Jagwire brand wound string. It seems that the Jagwire has a larger center core than other brands. That solved the problem.

However, that fix will cause another problem, bar rattle; as the Jagware will be larger than the strings next to it. You will have adjust the adjacent strings size to resolve the "buzz" issue.

Bo Legg · Posted 26 Nov 2011 5:50 pm

Bobby you are right on with the binding in the hole problem. But instead of replacing the rods I rimmed out the holes to give more space so it could travel further to accommodate my use of lighter gauge strings. It was the only adjustment I had to make on all my PSGs.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

It is not string 6, it is string 8 that is giving me problems. I just want to drop a whole tone down to G

On string 6 of the E9 neck, and on the original topic of the thread, when I rodded up the drop to F#, I accidentally set it up way too fast. It dropped effortlessly all the way down to D#!!
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

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