Changers

David Fields · From: South Carolina, USA

What does it mean when someone talks about a double or triple changer? What about double stops?
Thanks for the information....

Dave

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

A double raise changer means there are holes in the finger for two raising pull rods on each string, and double lower means there are holes for two lowering pull rods. The MSA M3, with its quadruple raise, triple lower changer, has the capacity for four raising pull rods and three lowering pull rods.
You can have more pulls than holes, by having more than one pedal or knee pull on a rod. The farther you take that, the more the underside of your guitar looks like M. C. Escher's entry in a Rube Goldberg contest.

Double-stops is a musical term meaning that you're playing two fretted/barred/fingered strings at once

Half-stop, since you didn't ask, but probably will soon, is a pedal steel term, meaning that, on a string raised or lowered a whole tone, a step in resistance of the pedal/knee when you reach an intermediate point, such as you commonly find on the second string lower. You'll see it annotated D/C#, meaning you can feel the hitch at D before continuing on to C#.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

David Fields · From: South Carolina, USA

Thanks Lane....and if you don't mind I would like to ask another question.
What is the purpose of the multiple changer? Why would you need the extra holes and pulling rods?I understand the half-stop for getting a half fret instead of a whole......right?

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

Half stops, normally used on lowers, are undesireable and used only when absolutely needed. The 2nd string lower is a common "feel stop" for the 1/2 tone lower but many split this into two separate knee levers as many cannot feel the half stop.

I had several half stops (feel stops) on my old Emmons PP guitar but on the modern all pull guitars except for the mentioned 2nd string lower they are not usually used.

The all pull guitars have a number of raise and lower possibilities.

Consider the "standard" setup on an E9th with the 4th string (E). It is raised a full tone (E to F#) with the "C" floor pedal. That is one raise rod and one hole in the raise finger. That same string is also raised a half tone (E to F) with a knee lever and is done with a separate raise rod and hole in the raise finger.

The 5th string (B) also always has two separate raises and two separate pull (raise) rods. It is raised a full tone (B to C#) with the "A" Pedal and also raised a full tone with the "C" pedal. Each of these are connected to separate raise holes in the changer.

The two I noted are "standard" on almost all E9th setups. There can be others, depending on the individual's pedal setup.

There are similar raises on the C6th tuning too.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

You need multiple rods and pulls when you start adding more pedals and knees beyond the minimum (for instance, the first time I met Johnny Cox, I'd been playing for two months and he was with Ernest Tubb. He urged me to try his 10 X 10 Zum with a wrist lever - I didn't mean to interrupt your convo with Eddie Stubbs, Johnny. That was an intimidating guitar to a kid used to a 3 X 4 borrowed Lloyd Green; I thought he was being kind to a new kid. I did not realize he was a junkie trying to spread his addiction- I am kidding; Mike Auldridge had me hooked already)
My MSA is double raise, double lower, for instance. On the C6 neck, the 4th string A is raised to B twice: once with pedal 4 (both As to B); and P7 (third string C goes to D at the same time). We are going to have to get clever, because I want to raise it to Bb with a knee lever, But my changer is out of holes so we will have to figure out a way of sharing two changes on 1 rod. There are several ways to do this.
We just have to figure out which way works best on a MSA Classic.
If you look through the tuning charts that B0b has up here, you will find that many people raise the same string several times and by different values

As to the half stop, I didn't mean half a fret ( does anyone play indian music on these things?), I meant 1 fret, which is a half step. 2 frets are a whole step. There are times when a half of a fretvis a desirable move, like some of my blues licks, I achieve those by partially squeezing a pedal. That much dissonant tension is unpleasant to western ears, so I resolve it quickly
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Lane... Since the A to Bb is best put on a knee lever, you can do what I did and move the 4th pedal to a lever and half stop it at Bb. The best of 2 pedals on one lever. I only raise the 4th and not the 8th string, but I would imagine you could do both. Not sure how great the half stop would be on 2 strings at the same time. Some of these guys that work on guitars could probably get it to work where both strings hit the half stop at the same time.

Plus, I think it is Michael Yahl (man I hope I got his name right) and Tom Bradshaw made a gizmo to add another 3rd change to a double raise/lower MSA. Mike Perlowin I believe had them on his guitar(s).

And, to the original poster, I have a couple strings that have all 3 holes in a changer finger filled. That's why there are multiple holes.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Michael is the guy I've been working with and you have his name right.

The difficulty in timing does seem like a bear. I've raised 4 and 8 to Bb together since 82 and I don't wanna give up what I'm used to. Michael doesn't have those adapters but I've seen them. I don't know whether that, or barrels like the F lever of s push-pull Emmons, would be better. The only reason I say the barrels is because I didn't understand them when I saw them on either Palenscar's or Bradshaw's site. Since I didn't understand it and didn't yet know I'd need it, I moved on
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Michael Yahl · From: Troy, Texas!

Lane, I do have those little gizmos.

http://www.psgparts.com/Block-Triple-Raise-Lower-200-100-001.htm

I just finished two types of free stand brackets to mount knee levers on. Just dropped them in the tumbler to deburr. I'll get some pictures tomorrow with all the different configurations that can be mounted to them. One is for mounting the reversing linkage. They can be placed anywhere there's room.
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"Don't fergit to kiss yer horse!"
'72 Sho-Bud Professional D10, (in pieces .....), '78 MSA Classic XL D10, '69 Emmons PP, Fender 2000
Peavey Session 500 BW, Crate Digital Modeling Amp

PSG PARTS
http://www.psgparts.com/

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

To muddy the waters just a bit further, there is also a difference in length and feel of the pull depending on which hole in the changer finger is used, and that can be used to balance or change the feel of the pulls in the same way the different slots in the pulling fingers under the guitar do.
So besides allowing multiple pulls on any given string with different pedals/levers, more holes in the changer fingers allow more adjustment to feel.
I'm still amazed by the ingenuity involved in the evolution of the pedal guitar to it's current state.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Ok, but I still don't get how they work, I may suffer imagination failure.
Does it sit outboard the finger, using the rod from the second pull as a pilot? And with only two raise and two lower holes in the endcap, how do you tune the change?

PS: I'd thought about taking this off-board, but thought that there's hundreds of these guitars around, there's probably dozens of guys with the same question, and this seems a good place to discuss steel tech.

PPS: Mark, while I agree about the ingenuity of the evolution, I also find the ingenuity of those who made a push-pull guitar run with ten and ten mind-bending.

To elaborate on Mark's point, look at what's required to make that Franklin raise (string 1 to G#, 2 to E). The first string finger must move almost three times as far as the 2nd string. But you want them reaching pitch together. So the firs string rod will use a hole near the end of the bellcrank and farther from the top of the changer than the 2nd string. The more holes at bellcrank and changer, the greater the flexibility to get the balance perfect.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

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