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Topic: Why the ninth fret? |
Frank Freniere
From:
The First Coast
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Posted 6 Nov 2011 2:42 pm |
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| Fretboard markers. I get the third fret: it's the "bluesy" note (flat 3rd)on the open string. Fifth fret is the IV, 7th fret is the V, 12 is the octave. So why mark the ninth fret? Is it musical/mathematically - based or just a good place to drop in an inlay? |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 6 Nov 2011 2:58 pm
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| Mandolins mark the 10th fret, which can actually cause a to-do on forums about... something. It's just cosmetics. It's like arguing over piano keys ("Why aren't the black ones the..." etc.) |
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Tim Victor
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 6 Nov 2011 3:05 pm
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I was gonna make the same point as David. I play both guitar and mando and never noticed the difference until someone mentioned it to me. (They also very often don't have a 3rd fret marker)
I think your "just a good place to drop an inlay" is probably about right. It just helps to have them on there every so often. |
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Mark Carlisle
From:
Springville CA
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Posted 6 Nov 2011 3:14 pm
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| Many Sel-Mac Gypsy Jazz guitars have the 10th fret marked-they do that just to mess you up! I have a Gitane DG250M and it's kind of fun to pass it off to another guitar player and watch to puzzed look on their face when they go for the big ripping lead and something isn't sounding quite right... |
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Michael Maddex
From:
Northern New Mexico, USA
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Posted 6 Nov 2011 3:34 pm symmetry
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A lot of the late 19th and early 20th century guitars have a fret marker at the tenth, rather than the ninth, fret. Many of these instruments also omit the marker at the third fret and have none above the twelfth fret. I think that with the coming of the fourteen fret neck and markers above the twelfth fret, builders began to see the symmetry of markers three above and three below the octave. All of the above is, of ourse, my own speculation. YMMV. I have no eye-witness accounts to back it up. Scholarly research collaborating my opinions is welcome.
_________________
"For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert." -- Arthur C. Clarke |
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Frank Freniere
From:
The First Coast
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Posted 6 Nov 2011 3:45 pm
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MM -
The "three above and three below" the 12th fret octave makes sense to me. Maybe we're getting somewhere... FF. |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 6 Nov 2011 6:51 pm
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| I'm with Frank and Michael, 3 above and 3 below. Frets 3,5,7,9 also create a symmetry around the 6th fret, which is the center of the the octave. |
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Steve Hinson
From:
Hendersonville Tn USA
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Posted 6 Nov 2011 6:52 pm
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| Maybe cause it's the relative minor(6 min)of the open string... |
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Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
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Posted 6 Nov 2011 10:24 pm
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| David Mason wrote: |
| Mandolins mark the 10th fret...It's just cosmetics... |
Maybe the mandolin fret markers are due to the tuning in 5ths not 4ths. Fret 7 10 and 12 are the same notes as open 3 and 5 on the next string. The same marker pattern is repeated from 0=5 to 7-12. Just a guess.
The guitar 10th fret marker was maybe kept for similar reasons as the 5th fret marker, in that it marked the pitch two strings above, i.e. E string at 5th fret is second string A and the 10th fret marker would be D, the third string. The 9th fret marker is more helpful though, since it is the location for the barred E between 7 and 9 in A type, or in G type between 9 and 12. Again, just guessing. I bet Alan B. knows the answer.
| Michael Maddex wrote: |
| ...late 19th and early 20th century guitars have a fret marker at the tenth, rather than the ninth, fret. Many of these instruments also omit the marker at the third fret and have none above the twelfth fret... |
Maybe they figured that the four fingers dont need any markers in open position? The ukelele doesnt have a 3rd marker either. It doesnt make much sense in that tuning. The top 3 strings are the same intervals as guitar GBE (the anomaly) up two wholetones (B D# G#) and the bottom string (F#) is a whole tone lower than the top string. It also has the 10 instead of 9 fret marker and none above 12. Still contemplating that one.
Clete |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 7 Nov 2011 2:54 pm
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I am absolutely, positively sure there was no singular, Einsteinian "Pied Piper of the fretboard dots" in the 14th century who ever sat down and figured his way through this:
| Quote: |
Maybe the mandolin fret markers are due to the tuning in 5ths not 4ths. Fret 7 10 and 12 are the same notes as open 3 and 5 on the next string. The same marker pattern is repeated from 0=5 to 7-12. Just a guess.
The guitar 10th fret marker was maybe kept for similar reasons as the 5th fret marker, in that it marked the pitch two strings above, i.e. E string at 5th fret is second string A and the 10th fret marker would be D, the third string. The 9th fret marker is more helpful though, since it is the location for the barred E between 7 and 9 in A type, or in G type between 9 and 12. Again, just guessing. I bet Alan B. knows the answer.
Michael Maddex wrote:
...late 19th and early 20th century guitars have a fret marker at the tenth, rather than the ninth, fret. Many of these instruments also omit the marker at the third fret and have none above the twelfth fret...
Maybe they figured that the four fingers dont need any markers in open position? The ukelele doesnt have a 3rd marker either. It doesnt make much sense in that tuning. The top 3 strings are the same intervals as guitar GBE (the anomaly) up two wholetones (B D# G#) and the bottom string (F#) is a whole tone lower than the top string. It also has the 10 instead of 9 fret marker and none above 12. Still contemplating that one. |
There was no "they" then there who had time to sit around anguishing over the anomalous whole-tonality of it all. "They" just had to stick 'em somewhere, and then, that's where they go. Maybe the important question is, "When did you realize you had these... feelings about it?"
Why do spiders have 8 legs? Why do we call a banana a banana instead of calling it an aardvark?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHzdsFiBbFc |
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Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
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Posted 7 Nov 2011 5:47 pm
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Ok OK I recant about fret 9 David. It looks good there! The 3 or 4 above and below fret 12 is a good theory of why 10 became 9 a century ago. Im sorry I may have a tendency to overthink enigma when I feel like the spider with manic depression that isnt given anything. 
I think you would agree with me however, that it was not a cosmetic choice to place markers at frets 12, 7 and 5 where the prime harmonics are. Those were not "somewhere, and thats where they go" markers. It is probably just by coincidence that fret 9 and 3 produce the third and fourth harmonics.
Clete |
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Frank Freniere
From:
The First Coast
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Posted 8 Nov 2011 1:40 pm
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| Actually, that's good, Clete. I had forgotten about the harmonic third you can get at 9. Why not have a visual reminder? |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 9 Nov 2011 10:10 am
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| Quote: |
| It is probably just by coincidence that fret 9 and 3 produce the third and fourth harmonics. |
Typically, the frets on the guitar are tuned to tempered intonation, but the harmonics are from the "just intonation world".
The 12th fret is 1/2 of the string length. 1/2 inverted is 2/1, the 2nd harmonic, which is an octave above the fundamental (the open string). When you pick the harmonic on the 12th fret, it's an octave above the open string.
The 5th fret is 1/4 of the length of the string. 1/4 inverts to 4/1, the 4th harmonic which is an octave above the 2nd harmonic and 2 octaves above the fundamental, open string.
The 7th fret is 1/3 of the string length and the harmonic is an octave and a perfect 5th above the fundamental. A perfect 5th is 3/2.
The 3rd fret is 1/6 of the string length and the harmonic is perfect 5th, an octave above the harmonic on the 7th fret. The math on this stuff is very "friendly". 6/1 is 2/1 x 3/1 and 2/1 is an octave above.
The 9th fret is 2/5s of the string length. 5/2 is an octave above 5/4 and 5/4 is the just major 3rd. The harmonic on the 9th fret is a major 3rd. |
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Frank Freniere
From:
The First Coast
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Posted 9 Nov 2011 11:11 am
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| "Coincidence, my foot!" Thanks, Chas. |
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Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
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Posted 9 Nov 2011 1:48 pm
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Frank, I said coincidence kinda tongue-in-cheek  . I do think that there was indeed some math involved in why they are where they are. I was going to post earlier about the just intonation of harmonics, but I was feeling a little shot down in flames. Chas did approach the point well for me. The 7th harmonic at fret 10 is also the same note achieved by fretting it there, though 2 octaves higher and slightly flat in just intonation to the fretted note. That may be a reason why a marker was there at one point. Fret 4 produces the 3rd harmonic, same as on fret 9 as Chas mentions, but since the root and 5th were already marked at 3 and 5, it was probably skipped to avoid confusion. For what its worth (my opinion), the markers between the nut and fret 12 were put there for more than just cosmetics, and luthiers throughout the dark ages of fretted instruments had plenty of time, maybe centuries of evolution, to think about where they go.
Clete
Last edited by Clete Ritta on 9 Nov 2011 1:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Frank Freniere
From:
The First Coast
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Posted 9 Nov 2011 1:55 pm
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| Was not looking to flame you, Clete - just trying to sum up Chas's post with a little humor. |
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Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
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Posted 9 Nov 2011 2:15 pm
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Thanks for your vote of confidence Frank. This is an interesting topic to me. Much more so than bananas, aardvarks and spiders anyway. I've been staring at the markers on my guitar since 1975, but never really thought much about them till you posed this question.
Clete |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 9 Nov 2011 2:47 pm
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| Clete, I didn't intend to "set you up', I just saw your comment as a good lead in. There have been times when I've posted "technical" answers and they haven't always been received well. If you, me and Frank ever get to hang, I'll buy the 1st round. |
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Frank Freniere
From:
The First Coast
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Posted 9 Nov 2011 3:01 pm
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| I'm in! A Baker's on the rocks, please. |
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Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
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Posted 9 Nov 2011 3:18 pm
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Thanks Chas, that sounded Well Tempered to me! Set 'em up Joe, I'll get the next one.
Clete |
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Charles Kurck
From:
Living in Arkansas but Heaven is home
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