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Topic: Experimental tuning for a session |
Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 29 Oct 2011 10:57 am |
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I am doing a recording session tomorrow and in trying to establish a feel for the direction I want to go with this, the style of Ralph Mooney immediately jumped out at me. On my Fender T-8 Custom, I keep a C6, an E9 and the third neck is my "experimental" neck.
I didn't really like the vibe I was getting with the C6 neck, so I decided to try something new. When you need fast and accurate slants to emulate pedal steel (which is what I'm doing here), it can be very daunting when the red light comes on. So, I strung up the 3rd neck with:
G# .011
E .014
B .017
G# .020
F# .024
A .010
E .014
C# .017
It sounded terrific and gave me my A & B pedals depressed. The problem was that I had to use my thumb to sound the strings on the bottom and, while maybe some practice would have helped, it was too difficult to do it cleanly without strumming the F# above it.
What I did next was move the 3 strings from the bottom to the very top. Now it looks like this:
A .010
E .014
C# .017
G# .011
E .014
B .017
G# .020
F# .024
Man, is this cool! Takes a really good right hand to make it work (not like mine is), but there is a lot of great stuff in there other than the obvious and it helps me get a little closer to that Mooney/Bakersfield thing that I'm going for.
I've done a lot of experimenting over the years--a lot because I couldn't out how to play and a lot because I've wanted to be able to emulate pedal steel guitar.
Playing steel guitar is as much, if not more, of a mental game as anything else. Conceptualizing is so important in this respect. I am reading the most fascinating book, entitled "The Art of Piano Playing" by George Kochevitsky, that I recommend very highly. I don't play piano, but much of what I'm reading has a lot in common with the steel guitar.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links
Last edited by Mike Neer on 31 Oct 2011 4:49 am; edited 2 times in total |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 29 Oct 2011 11:29 am
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I have "situations" where the pedal squeeze is inappropriate, but I still have to be able to do all the diatonic stuff, so my 12-string guitars are tuned:
F#
D#
G#
E
C#
B
A
G#
F#
E
C#
B
It would be nice to have the high A, but a bar slant gets it, and the V-chord, E -> D# with A and B is a bar slant with the bottom E or the 2nd string, which leads to a nice walk up to E, F# and G#.
The tuning is kind of a hybrid diatonic and I think of it as E9 pedals up and down. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 29 Oct 2011 6:16 pm
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Chas, you would need to have the skills of a surgeon to play that! It would be very difficult for me. I know what you mean though about the pedal squeeze being verboten.
In my case, I am replacing a pedal steel track on a few tunes, and yet the sound of a pedal steel is what I am envisioning for the tunes, although played much differently than they were. When in doubt, go Moon.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Steve Ahola
From:
Concord, California
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Posted 29 Oct 2011 7:23 pm
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Funny that you should bring up the subject of experimental tunings because I just came up with this and have no idea what the chord or key would be:
1. E
2. B
3. A
4. F#
5. E
6. C#
I had been looking for my ideal tuning for my 2 pedal Six Shooter but I may have found it. I like the idea of having your recommended E9th tuning with the pedals up, and having an A6th tuning with the pedals down. The problem has been coming up with something that works well for the A and B pedals by themselves.
My latest idea was to use the A pedal to raise just the 2nd string to get the top six strings of the Noel Boggs E13th tuning you have suggested. So to get the A6th chord I want with both pedals down I would need to tune the B pedal as listed above. I just tried it out and it sounds really sweet but I have no idea what chord or key it would be in.
I know the word "pedal" is like poison in the Steels Without Pedals forum, so if that bothers someone just pretend that I am coming up with tunings for a multibender...  Although I am learning how to do pedal tricks I usually play it as a console steel with multiple necks (I might stay in one tuning for 5 or 10 minutes as the mood strikes me).
| Code: |
ALTERNATE TUNING Ver 3.0 (E9th)
PEDALS GAUGES
A B A&B
E E E E .015
B ++C# B ++C# .020*
G# G# +A +A .024w
F# F# F# F# .026
D D ++E ++E .030
B B ++C# ++C# .036
E13th A6/9 A6th |
All 4 choices here sound really good to my ears (5 if you include the A pedal halfway down for an E augmented chord).
EDIT I guess I would call the mystery chord an A6add9.
* I had to up-gauge the 2nd string from .018 to .020 to get enough tension on the A pedal (since there is just a single raise on that pedal).
Steve Ahola
P.S. I am going to try out your new tuning on an 8 string. What would you suggest for a 6 string version?
_________________
www.blueguitar.org
Recordings on electric guitar:
http://www.box.net/blue-diamonds
http://www.box.net/the-culprits
Last edited by Steve Ahola on 31 Oct 2011 3:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 29 Oct 2011 9:15 pm
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Steve, I don't think I'd recommend it. It is a very specific thing and it's working for me because I have a specific Lloyd Green, Ralph Mooney kind of sound in mind, but other than that, might be kind of useless. I'm loving it right now, though, and I hope I don't forget all the cool stuff I just discovered (very possible).
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Steve Ahola
From:
Concord, California
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Posted 29 Oct 2011 9:57 pm
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| Mike Neer wrote: |
| Steve, I don't think I'd recommend it. It is a very specific thing and it's working for me because I have a specific Lloyd Green, Ralph Mooney kind of sound in mind, but other than that, might be kind of useless. |
Mike- I've been trying to get the sound of the pedal steel pioneers on lap steel, too, with your E9th tuning working very nicely for many songs. I've started to get into the Noel Boggs E13th which is exactly the same as your E9th, but with the 2nd string(B) raised to the 6th(C#). That one note really makes a big difference. Thanks for your efforts as an evangelist for both of those tunings!
BTW with your new experimental tuning have you run into problems using small gauge strings for the 7th and 8th strings? Also is there a reason that you doubled up the E string?
You mentioned not being really excited about C6 on your triple neck. Have you tried A6? I wasn't really crazy about A6 until I started using it as the pedals down tuning for my Six Shooter, and sometimes I'll play it all night (at least until my left foot gets sore.) As many people here have said it is a great tuning for Western Swing. Getting back to C6, although that low C# comes in handy for chords I like having the low C for octaves for solo work and improvising. (I guess the Jerry Byrd tuning with both C and C# down there is a great compromise.)
Steve
_________________
www.blueguitar.org
Recordings on electric guitar:
http://www.box.net/blue-diamonds
http://www.box.net/the-culprits |
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Rich Sullivan
From:
Nelson, NH 03457
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Posted 30 Oct 2011 4:55 am
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Mike,
Cool tuning. I have spent most of my steel guitar career working with just three tunings, while hearing the words of the masters in my head - "Choose a tuning and stick with it. There are no perfect tunings. Etc." But last year I was messing around with "Bud's Bounce" after hearing your great non-pedal version. However, I don't utilize string pulls much at all, and since your version was based on that technique, I experimented until I came up with something that seemed to work for me. The sound that really captures the A-B pedal has the static root note on top of the chord, and going from a straight position one chord to a slant position four chord on non-pedal puts the root on the bottom. Anyway, in an E tuning, I put the high E on the string below the G# and B, so that the same slant has the high note static. Then I kept experimenting with the other strings until I came up with this tuning. Anyway, being re-entrant, it reminds me of your tuning. And here is a tab of Bud's Bounce in this tuning.
D# .015
B .018
G# . 024
E .014
C# .017
A . 022
G .026
E .030
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 30 Oct 2011 5:48 am
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| Steve Ahola wrote: |
...
BTW with your new experimental tuning have you run into problems using small gauge strings for the 7th and 8th strings? Also is there a reason that you doubled up the E string?
You mentioned not being really excited about C6 on your triple neck. Have you tried A6? ...
Steve |
Steve, I wanted to be to grab the triads with changing my right hand grip.
You must've misunderstood--I love the C6 on this guitar, just for this session it doesn't work for 2 or 3 tunes.
Rich, I remember your tuning--we talked about it in Dallas. It sounded great.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 31 Oct 2011 3:50 am Post-session
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I ended up using this new tuning on about 3 songs. It was the perfect vibe for the tunes, although I kept the playing simple. In fact, I kept the playing simple for all of the songs I recorded. But it was a grueling session, about 5 hours. I ended using the C6 neck a lot as per a request for some Hank Sr. vibe. I'm definitely keeping this tuning on the guitar for a while--I think there is a lot in there.
You really can't completely appreciate the mastery of Jerry Byrd and other great players until you've been in that seat: in the studio with a handful of people listening to you record your parts. The slightest deviation from pitch is evident and it is so difficult to mask. I ended up playing in the control room with the amp in another room and listening through the monitors only. It was a little strange. When it came time to solo, I took a little extra time and composed solos on the spot, for the sake of the songs. I think it worked out for the best. I'll be interested to hear what I played because I can't remember any of it today.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Jerome Hawkes
From:
Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 31 Oct 2011 8:13 am
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so true Mike - i am still amazed so many great golden era intros and solos came right off the cuff when the red light came on. i recall the story that Don Helms told about many of his classic intros - Hank would bring in some handwritten lyrics, they would hum an intro and then record the tune, most in no more than 3 takes. amazing in these days of multi-take/tracked recordings.
_________________
'65 Sho-Bud D-10 Permanent • '54 Fender Dual-8 • Clinesmith T-8 • '38 Ric Bakelite • '92 Emmons D-10 Legrande II |
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Steve Ahola
From:
Concord, California
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Posted 31 Oct 2011 3:21 pm
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| Rich Sullivan wrote: |
| I don't utilize string pulls much at all, and since your version was based on that technique, I experimented until I came up with something that seemed to work for me. The sound that really captures the A-B pedal has the static root note on top of the chord, and going from a straight position one chord to a slant position four chord on non-pedal puts the root on the bottom. Anyway, in an E tuning, I put the high E on the string below the G# and B, so that the same slant has the high note static. Then I kept experimenting with the other strings until I came up with this tuning. |
Thanks for sharing all of that with us! If that tuning works well for you, I am sure that other people will find it useful (hopefully me, too!  )
Steve
_________________
www.blueguitar.org
Recordings on electric guitar:
http://www.box.net/blue-diamonds
http://www.box.net/the-culprits |
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Steve Ahola
From:
Concord, California
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Posted 1 Nov 2011 1:50 am
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Rich:
I'm getting ready to string up one of my 8 strings with your tuning. I had a question about whether two of the strings are plain or wound:
3rd G# .024
6th A .022
I am assuming that the strings smaller than .022 are plain and that the ones larger than .024 are wound... is that true?
Thanks!
Steve
P.S. I was just checking the string tension chart by D'Addario and for the same size the plain strings have 16-18% more tension than the wound strings.
_________________
www.blueguitar.org
Recordings on electric guitar:
http://www.box.net/blue-diamonds
http://www.box.net/the-culprits |
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