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Topic: Playing technique: playing down the frets - in tune |
Ruth Iseli-Dahler
From:
Switzerland
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Posted 19 Oct 2011 12:49 pm |
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playing a move from a lower fret to a higher, I can see my next goal, fret, and place the bar exactly with the help of my eyes.
Playing DOWN the neck - how do you find the absolut right place? So that it sounds absolutely correct?
I am talking about a certain move, it starts on fret 22 - 20 - 17ab -16ab - 15ab - 15 - 14 - 13 - 17ab - 16ab - 15ab - 15 (15ab - 15)
always picking string 6, then 5 and 3
Difficulty is the jump from 20 to 17ab.......
I tried to play it many many times, hoping that I just hit the right point automatically
also tried to see trough my fingers somehow......
not the great sucsess either
Maybe there is another technique????
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Mullen Pre-RP D10, Emmons D10, Mullen G2 SD10, Dobros |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 19 Oct 2011 1:07 pm
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Ruth, Make sure you are seated correctly. The rule of thumb is to line up your shirt buttons(mid-point on your body) with the 15th fret. From there on it is strictly practice, and more practice.
Just sit there and practice moving between the frets you have problems with, say 30 times in a practice session
There might be other tricks that people use...Let's wait and see.
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BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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Ruth Iseli-Dahler
From:
Switzerland
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Posted 19 Oct 2011 1:22 pm
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that's what I am doing, believe me and it helps - but not enough. So you don't have any difficulties with that anymore?
By the way, liked checking out your side - er du fra Norge og bor i Canada na?
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Mullen Pre-RP D10, Emmons D10, Mullen G2 SD10, Dobros |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 19 Oct 2011 1:34 pm
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The answer is the same as the answer to
"How do you get to Carnegie Hall?"
P R A C T I C E
As you go up the fretboard the distance between frets narrows and the potential for a small error in bar placement to be audible increases.
Consciously play up there more and LISTEN. The feedback mechanism between the ears and hands must be well trained. Start at the 12th fret and play 2 note harmonized major scales, then at the 13th, all the way up to the 24th fret. Play familiar songs you might play in a lower position an octave higher WITH RHYTHM TRACKS or something to judge your pitch by.
It's just a skill that must be developed. The tale is told of Buddy Emmons in the dressing room at the Opry practicing nothing but harmonics for hours. Just takes a lot of seat time.
Do it SLOWLY. Listen carefully for the proper pitch. Use a metronome. Once it's perfect, slowly increase the tempo.
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12
Last edited by Larry Bell on 19 Oct 2011 1:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ruth Iseli-Dahler
From:
Switzerland
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Posted 19 Oct 2011 1:41 pm
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okok  
I'm practicing that for a year which is more than half of my playing time but it seems to take more time.....but at least there's hope if I continue and so far there is no "great trick" which I thought I might have missed....
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Mullen Pre-RP D10, Emmons D10, Mullen G2 SD10, Dobros |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 19 Oct 2011 1:43 pm
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Are you practicing it at tempo or slowly? Often we try to learn a song up to performance tempo and it can be MUCH BETTER TO START SLOWLY and work up to tempo. This is especially true when you are developing new skills.
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12 |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 19 Oct 2011 3:00 pm
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One thing Buddy Charlton showed me was to stretch my fingers out behind the bar a bit before sliding down to help get a feel for the interval. Another thing is to make sure that your bar hand is relaxed and stable. Do not whip or angle the bar as you slide down. Try not to rely on your vision for pitch. The goal is to have a more direct link between what you hear and what your hands do. Careful slow practice is the trick.
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Bob |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 19 Oct 2011 3:32 pm
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Try playing the exact same note on as many different strings as it exists on. To help accurate descension, play a note on the lowest string at the 19th fret, then match it going across the strings, down the frets. Then two notes - just back and forth, (for example) an E and a D on one string up high. Then do it on the next string over. Then do it back on the first string - then do it two strings over, always matching pitches. You can figure out a world of these little "games" yourself, whichever ones seem too hard are, naturally....
Learning to play the exact same lick in as many places and ways as possible taught me more about the C6th neck than any other single thing. Tiny licks to start. Playing along with drone tones is a really good tool too. Bob Hoffner sells a CD, or you can trick Band-in-a-Box into it, or apply a C-clamp to a Casio keyboard... unison and octaves to start, but you'll work toward treating the drone as a 4th, 5th, then 3rd & 6th soon enough. I practice chord arpeggios on single strings too - just run a 1-3-5-6-8-10-12-13-16-12-10-8-5-3-1 off an open string, up and down to the 2nd octave and back. Then 1-5-3-6-5-8-6-10-> etc. Yikes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_omCsitGYs |
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Bill Bertinot
From:
Burlington Ky
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Posted 19 Oct 2011 3:45 pm Playing in tune
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Try this: with your bar on the 20th fret, play the 4th string and look at your tuner so that you are in-tune. Make a mental note of where your bar is in relation to the fret, or the next fret if you can't see the 20th because the bar is covering it. Then slide down to the 17th with pedals ab pressed, play the 4th string again and move the bar so that you are in tune. Make a mental note of where the bar is in relation to that fret or the next one if you can't see the 17th fret. (if you cannot see the fret you are on the top of, AND per your tuner you are in tune, then before you move the bar, mentally measure the distance of your bar to the 18th fret. Then practice sliding your bar down to that same position and check your tuning.)
At first it will be very slow going, practice this 10 minutes a day for a week and you will be surprised. This works on the lower sections, middle, and upper sections of the fret board as well.
Remember, you are sitting in a fixed position, so the bar will "appear" to be just below the fret at the lower end of the fret board, in the middle will "appear" just on top of the fret, and the very upper fret board may "appear" just in front of the fret. |
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John Neff
From:
Athens, GA
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Posted 19 Oct 2011 3:48 pm
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| A helpful tip I picked up from a Rick Alexander video is to keep your eyes on your next fret position. It's made landing in the right spot easier. |
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Jim Robbins
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 19 Oct 2011 3:58 pm
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I had the same problem but am getting better at it. Similar to David Mason, I find playing the same note on different strings to be useful but use a modified version of the Paul Franklin "bar hand exercise". E.g. start at 24th fret string 7 (F#), slide down two frets & play string 6 at fret 22 (F#), play string 7 at the same fret 22 (E), slide down two frets to 20 & play string 6 (also E) etc. all the way down the neck in major seconds. That much is pretty much the first part of the bar hand exercise descending; this is where it gets different: Do the same thing in minor thirds, sliding down three frets at a time on string 6 & 5. Do the same thing in major thirds sliding down 4 frets at a time on string 4 & 3. Do the same on perfect 4ths sliding down 5 at a time on strings 4 & 5. I do this up and down. Keep the bar straight & don't use vibrato. I find this works pretty well as a warm up exercise.
Another helpful thing & hard thing to do is just the straight bar hand exercise -- but look at your tuner and not your hand: http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=176202&highlight=bar+hand+exercise |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 19 Oct 2011 4:46 pm
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Bob H. Said:
| Quote: |
One thing Buddy Charlton showed me was to stretch my fingers out behind the bar a bit before sliding down to help get a feel for the interval. |
I do this also. I learned the trick from a dobro course I had. It really helps to see the frets that would otherwise be hidden under your fingers.
The other tip that was mentioned that helps me out is to look at your next fret position BEFORE you make the move. Unconsciously, your mind is already working on what mechanics it needs to perform to make the move. John Hughey is the one who told me that. It works.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Ruth Iseli-Dahler
From:
Switzerland
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Posted 19 Oct 2011 10:01 pm
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What a morning, so many tips and hints. Thank you all so much for answering. I will try now...... there are different ideas and I am astonished there are so many!
One thing I know, but it's good to read it again: practicing slowly. I do, I always start slowly but then I take the soundtrack which is uptempo ....
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Mullen Pre-RP D10, Emmons D10, Mullen G2 SD10, Dobros |
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Ruth Iseli-Dahler
From:
Switzerland
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Posted 19 Oct 2011 10:46 pm
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@ David:
Try playing the exact same note on as many different strings as it exists on. To help accurate descension, play a note on the lowest string at the 19th fret, then match it going across the strings, down the frets
This works 
Then two notes - just back and forth, (for example) an E and a D on one string up high. Then do it on the next string over. Then do it back on the first string - then do it two strings over, always matching pitches.
Sorry, I can't imagine this, maybe due to language difficulites (I am swiss) Maybe you write a example, just the beginning?
Using a drone is also a really good idea, thanks!
@ Bill: what you suggest is stressful but it seemy to help in this certain situation. I was astohished how difficult it is with the tuner..... I rather use the keyboard as a reverence, it stands beside the steel
sorry the others, can't do all the same time
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Mullen Pre-RP D10, Emmons D10, Mullen G2 SD10, Dobros |
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Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
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Posted 20 Oct 2011 12:18 am
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What Jim said above.
This thread posted by Paul Franklin explains an exercise he does that improves bar hand accuracy. He does this up to fret 15, but it can be extended up and down the entire neck to improve the accuracy up in "Hugheyland" as well. Using a drone note is helpful to play along with, as it provides a tonal center to keep you in tune. Better to play by ear and a drone tone than by eye with a tuner IMO.
Clete |
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CrowBear Schmitt
From:
Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France
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Posted 20 Oct 2011 4:46 am
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Good thread Ruth 
Lotsa great replies
Playing up high is quite an art & demands mucho practise
playing up high is not one of my high points
i find myself leaning over to the right to see the bar better (i have my tummy at fret 15)
Practicing high positions by ear & not looking at the position is probably one of the better suggestions here
along w: getting blindfolded - ask your husband to do it Ruth 
one steeler who really does me in : Mike Johnson he excels in playing up high
edited : a similar discussion goin' on over here :
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=213748
Last edited by CrowBear Schmitt on 20 Oct 2011 9:57 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Ruth Iseli-Dahler
From:
Switzerland
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Posted 20 Oct 2011 5:12 am
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You're right, Jamie, lots of great answers. Believe me, I spent my morning checking that out and had the kids eat fastfood for lunch. Looking forward to what Franklin teaches....but as you all say: good work takes time, practicetime, don't expect me to post the tune I am workin on tomorrow - perfectly played 
Wintertime, we can practice without light, that's dark enough here to really use the ears 
I don't think leaning to the right is the very best idea, if I can take my chance and correct YOU  but it might work for bears, haha
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Mullen Pre-RP D10, Emmons D10, Mullen G2 SD10, Dobros |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Steve Hitsman
From:
Waterloo, IL
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Posted 20 Oct 2011 5:27 am
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Here's the way I play the bridge for "Well You Needn't"... should be a good exercise for exactly what you're talking about. C6 neck:
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 20 Oct 2011 1:49 pm
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| Quote: |
Then two notes - just back and forth, (for example) an E and a D on one string up high. Then do it on the next string over. Then do it back on the first string - then do it two strings over, always matching pitches.
Sorry, I can't imagine this, maybe due to language difficulites (I am swiss) Maybe you write a example, just the beginning? |
I play C6th only, so I don't know if a drawing would help, but this:
On your lowest (10th) string, play D and E, back and forth, back and forth till it's settled. For me this is at the 14th to 16th fret. Then change to the 9th string - just D and E, back and forth (in C6th that's at the 9th to 11th fret). Then move to the 8th string, playing D and E (5th and 7th fret). Then play it again on the 7th string - D to E at the 2nd and 4th fret.
Now, maybe go back to the 10th string - fret 14 to 16, back and forth.. then change to the 8th string, same two notes at the 5th and 7th fret. Then the 9th string, D and E at the 9the and 11th fret. Then to the 7th string, at the 2nd to 4th fret. You're not trying to blaze through this, just match the pitches with care and tone (while you're playing, it never hurts to think about that).
Very, very conveniently - the E note you're sliding to is there on the open 6th string. You can check it any time, but you also want to be able to play without it, just matching string to string.
This is just a steppingstone, but what isn't? The very next thing I would do (it will get dull) is to start playing it as a triplet exercise. Play the D to E at the 12th to 14th fret on the 10th string, then add the 14th-fret note on the 9th string - whatever it may be (A). D-E-A, D-E-A, D-E-A, D-E-A. Now, play the D to E on the 9th string, add the upper note on the 11th fret of the 8th string (Ab). Play the D to E on the 8th string - 5th to 7th fret & add the upper note on the 7th string, 7th fret (G).
Of course, you can choose any two notes anywhere and match it somewhere else. Any three notes... if you're still un-confused, notice that in a standard C6th tuning, you can both lower and raise the 9th string 1/2 step! (P8 & P5) Hmmm, wonder what that does? D note to an E note at both the 8th->10th fret, and the 10th->12th fret. Uh-oh... and if you're tuning is Emmonized, you can raise and lower the 8th string 1/2 step too. (And I just fell off the cliff for about 20 minutes there myself). Now I'm confused too. |
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Jim Robbins
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 21 Oct 2011 10:36 pm
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| Clete Ritta wrote: |
| Better to play by ear and a drone tone than by eye with a tuner IMO. |
I can't argue with playing by ear as being the first and foremost (& btw you can use an open string as a drone tone). However, the Franklin bar hand exercise involves some tense intervals in a very abstract context -- 2nds, 7ths, 9ths, tri-tones -- & it's hard to nail them by ear since you are likely going to want to play them close to ET. The only people that play JI m7ths are bagpipers. That's why I watched the tuner & then 'dumbed down' the exercise by changing pairs of strings to incorporate unisons which are easy to hear. But the tuner is only a supplement to ears, not a substitute. Sometimes I look out the window rather than at a tuner & sometimes I cheat and look at my left hand ... |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 24 Oct 2011 5:15 pm
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| Ruth Iseli-Dahler wrote: |
that's what I am doing, believe me and it helps - but not enough. So you don't have any difficulties with that anymore?
By the way, liked checking out your side - er du fra Norge og bor i Canada na? |
Sorry, forgot checking this thread.
Oh yes, I still have difficulties. Why? Because I don't practice enough. A bunch of people mentioned that the "secret" is practice. I agree. That's all it takes
Ja, det stemmer - jeg bor i Canada nå
Thanks for checking my site. Let me know if you want one of those
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BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 25 Oct 2011 9:37 am
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Such an esteemed authority as Reece Anderson is adamant that the fretboard is like a coded map to understanding and playing music, and another authority, Buddy Emmons, had been known to play with a blank fretboard, so...(?) For my own use, I find my modified "Hankey Upright Fretboard" does help with bar placement, especially in conjunction with any written material:
The blocked fretboard is just a tool to remind me to look up instead of down.
Here is Bill Hankey's original:
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Bill Miller
From:
Gaspe, Quebec, Canada
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Posted 25 Oct 2011 12:56 pm
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| The subject of this thread is something that befuddled me for a long time as well. But it sorts itself out with practice. It's all muscle memory and the development of the ear. Watch Joe Wright, he doesn't even have to look at his bar placement, his ears and muscle memoery lead him to the right position automatically. He's the most extreme example I can think of. |
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Ruth Iseli-Dahler
From:
Switzerland
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Posted 25 Oct 2011 12:59 pm
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sorry, somehow no mail came to remember me to check here.....
A blank fretboard _ I thought, playing steel has something to do with masochism now that's the proof - and then record it and listen to it  , at least at the beginning I guess - I will check out when back to steel tomorrow
Muskelmemory - true, I believe that, too. I will have to play for some more years and maybe laugh when thinking back what kind of problems I had in the beginning
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Mullen Pre-RP D10, Emmons D10, Mullen G2 SD10, Dobros |
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