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Topic: P/P Tuning Issue |
Dave Alfstad
From:
Indianola, IA USA
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Posted 10 Oct 2011 2:10 pm |
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| When I tune my 5th string on my 1976 Emmons, I tune the pedal at the keyhead and then tune it open with the allen wrench. When I depress the pedal again it comes up a few cents sharp. It is driving me nuts and it is almost impossible to work with like this. Any suggestions on a fix? |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 10 Oct 2011 3:38 pm
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Are you tuning the B with the BOTTOM setscrew in the changer? Just a thought. You probably already know that, but another potential problem could be if it has a half tone tuner. Since the A and C pedals both raise 5 to C# and you can only tune one of them at the endplate, either the B to C# pull on the A or C pedal must have one. That, too, may not be your issue, but I thought I'd mention it. The push-pull changer is pretty simple. Something has to be binding up somewhere. Move the changer manually -- does it return ok when you hit the A pedal? Be sure the pull rod is not hanging up on the hanger that attaches it to the changer. Does the C pedal pull work ok?
Just some ideas. I've been there.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12 |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 10 Oct 2011 4:12 pm
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I don't have a clue what's going on with Dave's PP, but I don't agree that you must have a half tone tuner on either pedal A or C. I don't have one on either pedal, and my PP works just fine.
I suppose if you want to tune the C# of string 5 to different pitches for tempering purposes, a half tone tuner would be necessary. But that's not common, in my experience.
I just re-read Larry's comment and I realize he did not say there "must be" a half-tone tuner on the fifth string. My apologies to you Larry. It is possible there is one on the string; but not likely in my experience. |
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Dave Alfstad
From:
Indianola, IA USA
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Posted 10 Oct 2011 5:00 pm
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| Yeah, I am tuning the open B with the bottom set screw. Tuning the open string really has nothing to do with it. If I tune the C# at the keyhead, release the pedal, and mash it again, it comes up sharp. It's only the 5th string; the 10th string is fine. I can't see where there's anything binding it. |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 10 Oct 2011 5:27 pm
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Have you tried changing the string?
If so, turn the guitar over on it's keyhead side endplate. Plug into a tuner. When the 5th string reaches the end of the pedal excursion, can you then manually pull it a little farther before it hits the guitar body? If so....that's wrong.
The goal is to have both B's hit C#:
[1] just when they contact solidly against the body
[2] simultaneously.
Once that's done, tune your 5th and 10th open strings, and make sure you have enough slack for them to tune to B.
Last edited by Tony Glassman on 10 Oct 2011 5:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Craig A Davidson
From:
Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA
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Posted 10 Oct 2011 5:35 pm
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| Or re-adjust your pedal stop. It sounds like it is letting the change go too far. |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 10 Oct 2011 5:42 pm
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| tony's right..the changer first has to be adjusted properly ..that's most important. |
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Dave Alfstad
From:
Indianola, IA USA
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Posted 10 Oct 2011 6:55 pm
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Tony, that sounds like the most likely problem. I will check into that tomorrow and see if that's what's going on. If that is the problem, what is the remedy? What needs to be adjusted? I have to admit, although I am relatively mechanically inclined, I don't mess around with adjusting my P/P very much. (Fortunately it's not very often that I have to.)
Thanks for the help. |
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Cal Sharp
From:
the farm in Kornfield Kounty, TN
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Dave Alfstad
From:
Indianola, IA USA
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Posted 10 Oct 2011 7:38 pm
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| Thank you, Cal. However, that article only applies to tuning the guitar, which I have successfully done to this guitar for about 12 years now. The problem I am having is an adjustment issue which isn't covered in that FM. |
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Cal Sharp
From:
the farm in Kornfield Kounty, TN
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 10 Oct 2011 8:52 pm
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| What I would do would be to first use your finger to pull the 5th string raise finger to the natural stop in the cabinet which limits the forward excursion of the changer finger and at that point tune it to a C# note. It then can go no further and you then set the pedal stop to be just a "lil' titch" past that to prevent excessive strain on the mechanisms involved. Now engage each pedal that activates the 5th string raise and insure that each pedal is pulling the 5th string raise finger up against the cabinet stop- check that by engaging the pedal to its maximum and then attempting to pull the finger forward some more. If you are able to see/feel finger movement after the pedal involved is activated either the pedal stop is maladjusted and stopping the forward excursion of the finger or another pull (ie.- the 10th string) is bottoming out before the 5th string and preventing it from going forward and an adjustment must be made- adding a spring, checking for a broken spring, etc. Then release the pull and check the open B note and adjust it at the end plate. If you can't make it go flatter than a B note then your linkage needs to be adjusted to allow it to do this before the final B note is adjusted. |
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Buck Reid
From:
Nashville,TN
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Posted 11 Oct 2011 4:38 am
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You may also want to check the main return spring for that string... to ensure that both pieces of the mechanism for that string are returning to the same spot each time.
_________________
www.BuckReid.com |
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Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
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Posted 11 Oct 2011 5:44 am
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| Jim Palenscar wrote: |
| What I would do would be to first use your finger to pull the 5th string raise finger to the natural stop in the cabinet which limits the forward excursion of the changer finger and at that point tune it to a C# note. It then can go no further and you then set the pedal stop to be just a "lil' titch" past that to prevent excessive strain on the mechanisms involved. Now engage each pedal that activates the 5th string raise and insure that each pedal is pulling the 5th string raise finger up against the cabinet stop- check that by engaging the pedal to its maximum and then attempting to pull the finger forward some more. If you are able to see/feel finger movement after the pedal involved is activated either the pedal stop is maladjusted and stopping the forward excursion of the finger or another pull (ie.- the 10th string) is bottoming out before the 5th string and preventing it from going forward and an adjustment must be made- adding a spring, checking for a broken spring, etc. Then release the pull and check the open B note and adjust it at the end plate. If you can't make it go flatter than a B note then your linkage needs to be adjusted to allow it to do this before the final B note is adjusted. |
_________________
MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 11 Oct 2011 6:57 am
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| Ken Metcalf wrote: |
| Jim Palenscar wrote: |
| What I would do would be to first use your finger to pull the 5th string raise finger to the natural stop in the cabinet which limits the forward excursion of the changer finger and at that point tune it to a C# note. It then can go no further and you then set the pedal stop to be just a "lil' titch" past that to prevent excessive strain on the mechanisms involved. Now engage each pedal that activates the 5th string raise and insure that each pedal is pulling the 5th string raise finger up against the cabinet stop- check that by engaging the pedal to its maximum and then attempting to pull the finger forward some more. If you are able to see/feel finger movement after the pedal involved is activated either the pedal stop is maladjusted and stopping the forward excursion of the finger or another pull (ie.- the 10th string) is bottoming out before the 5th string and preventing it from going forward and an adjustment must be made- adding a spring, checking for a broken spring, etc. Then release the pull and check the open B note and adjust it at the end plate. If you can't make it go flatter than a B note then your linkage needs to be adjusted to allow it to do this before the final B note is adjusted. |
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Yeah.......what Jim said!  |
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Lynn Stafford
From:
Ridgefield, WA USA
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Posted 11 Oct 2011 7:11 am P/P Tuning Issue
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Hi Dave,
I don't know if you've tried this or not, but when I work on guitars, I have them supported in a in such a way that I can pluck the strings while I work on the under carriage. I use a wooden cradle that I made but you might be able to carefully block your inverted guitar up on a table or bench. If you do this (while using your tuner) you'll be able to pluck the 5th string open, raise it and then watch for what could be happening with the raise finger not returning against the open adjustment screw on the lower finger. When was the last time you checked to see if all the fingers were all freely revolving on the axle? Do you lubricate the changer(s) when you change your strings? You might want to take off the 5th string and see if the finger is free to turn and perhaps work a few drops of oil from above on either side of the finger with the guitar upright on the floor. Also, check to see if there is ample clearance for the set collars for both pedal A and C next to the bell crank swivels for the raise rod that pulls this finger. You might want to check the nut rollers to see if they are not turning freely, as the can get pretty gunked up over time if they are not taken out, cleaned and lubricated from time to time. Please feel free to email me with your phone number and I'll be happy to give you a call.
_________________
Best regards,
Lynn Stafford
STEEL GUITAR WEST
http://www.steelguitarwest.com
Steel Guitar Technician (Restoration, Set-up, Service and Repair work)
Previous Emmons Authorized Dealer & Service Technician (original factory is now closed)
ZumSteel Authorized Service Technician
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Bud Angelotti
From:
Larryville, NJ, USA
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Posted 11 Oct 2011 8:08 am
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| 5th string right ? Maybe it's getting caught up on the 10th string ? And it needs slop. |
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Buck Reid
From:
Nashville,TN
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Posted 12 Oct 2011 5:26 am
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By all means do what Jim and Lynn said... and in addition, DO check that main return spring. Without enough tension, your starting and stopping points can float around and cause what you're describing. Sometimes it's the simple things... we all know these springs weaken over time and definitely worth checking out.
_________________
www.BuckReid.com |
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Bob Cox
From:
Buckeye State
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Posted 12 Oct 2011 5:42 am
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You need a set of my HD Steel guitar stands. You will be able to see whats going on underneath without flipping it back and forth . You can also plug your guitar in while it is upside . They will elevate it off the table enough to strum it for testing on tunner or amp.
 down . |
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