5th String Pedal Rod Help

Matt Cordano · From: Oakdale, California, USA

Mechanically disinclined steel player needs help!

I have a Rains D-10, and I'm having a serious problem tuning the fifth string on the E9 neck. The string tunes to B, but when I engage the A pedal, I can't seem to get the string to tune up to C#. The same thing happens when I engage the C pedal. I can get the pitch close to C#, but it won't tune all the way up.

What scares me is that I crank on the fine tuner/pedal rod with my hex wrench and nothing seems to happen. I think there's something stripped in there, but I don't really know. Is that a common problem after a five or so years, and if so, is it an easy fix? Would I have to replace the whole rod?

Any response would be appreciated! Thanks!
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Matt Cordano

David Nugent · From: Gum Spring, Va.

Matt....A couple things you may try..(1) Check the changer for any string ball ends that may be lodged there...(2) Looking at the endplate, check to see if the fifth string changer finger is slightly forward of the rest, in which case one or both of the pull rods affecting that string may be overtuned. Simply back off each nylon nut and listen to see if you notice the pitch of the string lowering as you do so. After backing off both nuts completely (until no pitch change occurs when the pedal(s)are depressed) retune each pedal...Hope this proves helpful, best of luck, and keep us posted...Just a thought, have you replaced the fifth string with a different gauge?

Elton Smith · From: Texas, USA

I had a problem similar to that when I bought my twelve string.Look at you fingers on the changer and see if they are lined up.If not trace the rod to the lever or pedal and release the tension on the rod till it pops back into place.If all the figers are lined up properly may be another problem.It will be the collar on the rod and a small hex wrench to fix it.
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CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

David N has given you some good pointers Matt
ref to his 1 : it is indispensable, when a string breaks, to ALWAYS make sure the ball end has fallen out of the changer - if not gotta get it out !
(can be a drag in a live situation)
if a ball end remains in the changer, you gonna have grief

2 as Elton mentions : make sure the changer fingers return into place
the return of the changer fingers up against the plate is a must
as David mentions, check to see that you have'nt overtuned the nylon tuner

otherwise, i would suggest increasing the travel of the rod by changing the notch on the bell crank that the rod is connected to
that should bring your string 5 up to pitch
the closer to the tip/end of the bellcrank increases travel
(away from the underside/body of the steel)
the closer to the base/bottom of the bellcrank decreases the travel
(closer to the body of the steel)

let us know how you get on w: the phenomena Matt
otherwise keep askin' Winking

Matt Cordano · From: Oakdale, California, USA

Thanks for all the advice, guys! Time to get to work. I'll let you all know how it goes.
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Matt Cordano

Matt Cordano · From: Oakdale, California, USA

Ok, I've made no improvements.

I don't think there is a broken string ball-end in there. If so, I can't find it. Do they get lodged in ways that are difficult to find? I've taken the strings off, shined a mini-mag light in there, used some canned air to blow the dust out, probed around, and I can't seem to find a piece of broken string.

All the changer fingers are lined up.

The two pull rods for the 5th string seemed to be over tuned, so I backed them off with the hex wrench until everything looked lined up evenly.

Now, as I try to tune new 5th strings (David: I have always used .018 for the 5th), I still can't get the pedal to tune, and I've broken about 3-4 new strings in the process.

So, let me make sure I'm doing this right. You tune all ten strings at the keyhead. Next, you engage the pedals and tune the string to the correct pitch, once again at the key head. After that, with the pedals up, you tune the open strings at the end plate (counter-clockwise) to the correct open pitch. You repeat the process for all pedal/knee levers, either individually or particular combinations (i.e. A&B, B&C, A pedal & E lever, B pedal & F lever, etc.) until everything is properly in tune.

Crowbear, I haven't yet tried the adjustment at the bell crank. You recommend increasing the travel, but before I do that, I guess I need to understand why. I mean, why would the rod all of a sudden need that adjustment? How could this metal piece get to a point at which it needs more travel? What makes it do that?

Sheesh! I know I'm still basically a novice, but I'm starting to feel downright incompetent!
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Matt Cordano

CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

no need to despair Matt
no,you are not correct on the tuning procedure
tune open strings only first at keyhead & THEN tune all pedals & levers w: the nylon tuners on the end of the steel
you can then go back & check that the open strings remained at their right pitch

Jody Cameron · From: Angleton, TX,, USA

Matt, it sounds like you are trying to use the tune-up method similar to what one would use for the push-pull system...you have an all-pull guitar if it's a Rains.

Tune the strings to pitch at the keyhead, then tune all the pulls with your tuning wrench at the changer. (Raises and lowers)

Your all-pull guitar requires less steps to tune than the push-pull systems, commonly found on older Emmons guitars.

Hope this helps. Jody

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Tune your guitar with NO PEDALS to pitch (keyhead)
Tune each pedal using the nylon tuning nuts (endplate)
Check the open tuning -- if anything has changed, retune and tune any pedal pulls on that string.

If it doesn't go far enough without overtightening YOU NEED MORE TRAVEL on your pedal or lever.

THAT'S IT
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Matt Cordano · From: Oakdale, California, USA

Ok, I think I got it. Thanks again, everybody. I actually have been tuning correctly. I was reading some other posts, and I guess I read the push/pull method and mistakenly figured I'd been doing something incorrectly. So, it looks like I need to increase the travel.

Crowbear: yeah, I don't think there are any ball-ends in there. Everything still operates smoothly, and I searched around carefully. Hope I'm not wrong Oh Well

I'll let you know how it goes!
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Matt Cordano

Matt Cordano · From: Oakdale, California, USA

Increasing the travel did the trick! Thanks again, everybody, for your responses. I just moved the rods a couple of notches down the bell cranks, and my A and C pedals are once again raising my 5th string properly.

I'm sure my band will be happy. The last few weeks I've only been playing the Flying V and the banjo at gigs, so now we'll be back on track.

I guess I still just don't understand how this happens. What happens to these rods over time? And what if the same thing happens down the road? You can only increase the travel so far before you run out of notches on the bell crank.

I guess I'll just stick to trying to play the thing without it sounding like a dying animal.

Thanks again, everybody!
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Matt Cordano

Bill Moore · From: Manchester, Michigan

Most guitars have some sort of adjustment that actually increases the travel. Usually, there is a screw near the pedal rod connection, which makes contact with the body when the pedals are up. I've never looked at a Rains guitar, but this is very common on most others. If you are having a problem with the pedal travel seeming to change by itself, that screw might be loose fitting in it's threads. If it moves, the travel will change. I would take a close look, and see if this is happening.

If you use the bellcrank holes to change the travel, you will also be changing the leverage, the amount of force needed to depress the pedal. The screw adjustment is really the correct way to adjust the travel. You might consider putting the rods back where they were, and using the screw to increase the travel.

Matt Cordano · From: Oakdale, California, USA

Huh. I'll have to check that out. I did notice that it requires more force than usual to engage the pedals.
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Matt Cordano

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Try going to a .017, as slacker strings change more for the same changer travel

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Not really true
An 018 requires LESS throw than a 017 -- not much less though
Bigger the diameter of an unwound string SHORTER the throw
I use 17s and 18s pretty much interchangeably and don't have to change the tuning stop by much when I alternate. FWIW
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

At the same tension, yes, but as you decrease tension, the pitch will move farther for the same pedal travel. Tune that B to A# and see results.

Jerry Roller · From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA

Matt, if you are still having problems here is my suggestion. I hurriedly read the other responses so if this has already been stated, my apologies. It sounds to me like the lower return spring is not tight enough. This can allow the lowering finger to be dragged forward along with the raise finger thus raising and lowering the string at the same time. Watch the lowering finger as you engage the pedal and see if it moves away from the stop that the spring is holding it against. If it is tighten the spring adjustment until the lowering finger no longer moves forward and you are able to tune the C# to pitch.
Jerry

Bob Cox · From: Buckeye State

You may have a split tunning for the up lever over adjusted. If that screw is contacting your finger to soon ,you will not go to c#. A split tunning may not be on your guitar but if it is , and I'm suspecting it is. If this is the problem you can put your rod on every bell crank hole and you won,t correct the problem. A simple fix is to count down five screws to the b string on the back of the changer, up near the top and take the proper size wrench and back it out counter clockwise a few turns . now try your pedal and I bet it will pull to c# or even mabey more.You can study the split here on some of the past post or gets someone on the phone to walk you through it to get it tuned right.In short this screw adjustment enables you to do to funtions with one knee lever.

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