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Topic: Chords |
ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 23 Sep 2011 9:46 am |
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A general question on chords:
What chord types are in your arsenal?
Did chords determine your coped/setup?
What was/is your source of chord information?
What is your preferred type of music = Standards, Country, Jazz, other? |
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Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 23 Sep 2011 8:03 pm
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I can play most types of chords on the steel (by NO means have I found all the voicings, of course!). The tuning and setup I use (S-12 Bb6) was chosen mostly for chords, although single lines lay better on it for me than anything else. My sources for chords are Reece Anderson, my own chord knowlage (I've been a jazz guitarist for something like 30 years), Herby Wallace, and various friends like Pete Burak and Dean Rankin who have shown me some great stuff. My preferred style is jazz, and all it's variants.
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 23 Sep 2011 9:04 pm Re: Chords
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- What chord types are in your arsenal?
All of them, but I don't think of musical knowledge as an "arsenal".
- Did chords determine your coped/setup?
Not to a great extent. It seems to me that all modern copedents include adequate chording capabilities.
- What was/is your source of chord information?
Memory. I learned music theory a long time ago from various sources.
- What is your preferred type of music = Standards, Country, Jazz, other?
Instrumental
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 23 Sep 2011 10:05 pm Re: Chords
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| b0b wrote: |
- What chord types are in your arsenal?
All of them, but I don't think of musical knowledge as an "arsenal".
- Did chords determine your coped/setup?
Not to a great extent. It seems to me that all modern copedents include adequate chording capabilities.
- What was/is your source of chord information?
Memory. I learned music theory a long time ago from various sources.
- What is your preferred type of music = Standards, Country, Jazz, other?
Instrumental
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Ditto to all on b0b's answers, except I prefer listening to (and trying to play) classical music.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 24 Sep 2011 2:43 am
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I can't think of a way to answer that. My tuning/setup is pretty much a "standard" E9/C6 setup. Most of my musical knowledge has been from 50 years playing in bands. I worked in a band (playing lead guitar) for a while doing pop standards such as "Moonlight in Vermont", "Autumn Leaves", etc. I worked for a year in a New Orleans style dixieland band, playing bass, etc.
I currently play primarily traditonal country music, but as I do a show where singers or instrumentalists can sign up and perform it runs the spectrum of music. e.g. we recently had a horn player who did "pop" music.
About three months ago I "tracked" a steel track for a Bob Dylan song, which obviously is not traditional country.
What b0b posted probably holds true for many of us. |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 24 Sep 2011 7:40 am Tradition vs future tradition
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Interesting responses...thanks.
I came from the six string standard arch top Orchestra/Jazz oriented world. That has shaped my requirements for the instrument to a great degree...add to this Arnold Shoenberg's theory writings to complete the menu.
What prompted the questions with which this thread was opened is that I just finished assigning the P&L changes, and rodding one of my instruments for the M13 tuning structure. M13, in this case being C,E,G,B,D,F,A etc. = the line notes of the staff.
In doing this, it became apparent how much the choice of tuning/setup structure can affect the physical form of the PSG.
First, only a single halftone raise and lower are required to obtain just about any chord desired, and these chords are in such an order as to be easily remembered of derived on the fly. A single raise and lower means a simple changer with only one row of raises and one row of lowers. It also means less tension on the P&Ls assigned. It means shorter bell cranks allowing for the possibility of a thinner lighter body.
Second, although I have done this with a 14 string instrument, the tuning/setup structure will work as well with 10 or more strings.
Third, for those that would like to have less P&Ls but greater chord availability. The musical structure can be/was optimized around the 4 pedals and 5 levers = P1,P2,P3,P4,L<L>,R<R>.
The multitude of chords available are based upon using each string as a root to provide 3,4,5,6,& 7 tone chords with adjacent intervals on adjacent strings. For example, in 4 tone chords, 7, M7, m7, and mM7 chords are found for each string as root…b5, #5, can be added to each of these 4 tone chords. Adding a fifth string to the 4 tone group gives 9th chords, each of which may have b9 and #9. this continues thru the 11th, and 13th chords…so lots of chords available.
So…less pulls, less tensions, smaller rods, smaller changer, smaller body, all tend toward
more musical possibilities and less mass…the simplicity pleads for itself.
The strings become the lines of the staff in the M13 case, and they are also the spaces of the staff in the m13 case two frets up = read sheet music/fake books direct to the strings.
This approach will provide a new range of sounds/styles to the PSG world…it is a horse looking for a rider.
The above was implemented on one of my 13 series PSGs (Sierra Session series hardware) with integrated changer and keyless/gearless tuner.
Comments?
Edp |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 24 Sep 2011 8:08 am
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| Quote: |
| M13, in this case being C,E,G,B,D,F,A etc. = the line notes of the staff. |
It just occurred to me that the C6th tuning has F,A,C,E - the space notes. 
While a big "arsenal" of chords is very important, it's also quite desirable to be able to play every note at every fret. The M13 with single half-step raise, single half-step lower changes can't do that. Wherever you have a major third, the middle note will be left out. In C,E,G,B,D,F,A you will be missing the low D, middle A and high G.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 24 Sep 2011 8:22 am missing intervals?
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Bob,
FACE and CEGB are both M7s. The 3rds +/-1 halftone, 5ths +/- one halftone etc are all there in the M13 structure = C,E,G,B,D,F,A. these are line notes.
Add b3 and b7 to this to get C,Eb,G,Bb,D,F,A and we have Cm13. Move the m13 up two frets and get Dm13 which are the space notes. Parse out the chords contained in these two structures and get the 3,4,5,6 etc tone chords required to do scalar harmony. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 24 Sep 2011 8:47 am
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What I'm saying is that you can't play a C scale without moving the bar. You need a full step pedal to get the middle note wherever your base tuning has a major third.
Suppose, for example, a progression of C,C+,Am,C7 resolving to F. It's a simple moving tone (G-G#-A-Bb), but you'd need to move the bar to get the Am chord as there's no A note in that octave. A copedent needs to consider the requirements of real music, not just supply an arsenal of chords.
I ran into the opposite problem with my diatonic tuning experiments (which also used half-step changes for everything). I had all of the scales, but not the full set of chords. I've come to the conclusion that the approaches of the standard E9th and C6th both solve the musical problem, albeit in different ways.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 24 Sep 2011 9:03 am moving the bar
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So what is the issue with moving the bar? The road runner (speed pickers) major in that.
How do you harmonize the major scale in 4,5, etc. tone chords? How do you get a m7b5b9 or M7#5#9 and other such chords...admitted, they are not needed for Blue Eyes Crying in the Rain.
6th based tunings using repeated octaves (C.E.G,A,C,E,G,A) have the advantage that 4 tone inversions are built in without thinking to rename the chord using it's new root...not so the 13 series. |
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Don Sulesky
From:
Citrus County, FL, Orig. from MA & NH
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Posted 24 Sep 2011 9:20 am
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I started playing in the 50's.
Did R&R, Folk, Pop, Big Band, Jazz and now mostly Country.
So I've run the gammet on chords.
I have written a chord Pictionary of the more popular chords used. It can be found on my Forum post.
I think positions and boxes when I play and don't concentrate on the chords as much as I do on what combo of notes fit the tune I'm playing now.
Don
_________________
Private one on one lessons available
Member: FSGC, PSGA, TSGA
Co-founder: Florida Steel Guitar Club
"Steel guitar is like playing chess in the dark with three players". Jeff Newman quote from 1997 seminar |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 24 Sep 2011 9:34 am
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It's not just a question of notes and scales and chords. The standard E9 and C6 tunings have different characteristics. There's a certain musical personality to the E9 tuning itself, regardless of whose playing or what style of music.
What kind of characteristics or personality does this tuning have? Are there any recorded examples of music playied on it?
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Jack Aldrich
From:
Washington, USA
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Posted 24 Sep 2011 9:37 am
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| As a jazz pianist, in addition to being a steeler, I pretty well know my theory, and I bring that to my steel playing. I must add that I put theory aside when I begin to play. I can't think fast enough to reason out what I'm going to play and then play it. It really helps when I'm listening or trying to learn something I'm hearing, tho. btw, when I was learning C6, I was taught that the higher strings are C6, and the lower strings are FM7. This is similar to the B11 non-pedal tuning, where the top strings are an A6, with an E on the top, and the bottom strings are a B7.- Jack |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 24 Sep 2011 9:52 am Re: moving the bar
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| ed packard wrote: |
How do you harmonize the major scale in 4,5, etc. tone chords? How do you get a m7b5b9 or M7#5#9 and other such chords.. |
The answer is that you don't. You play some of the notes in the chord, and the other instruments play the rest. If the bass player is playing the note C and you are playing an E minor chord, the combined notes form a C major 7.
Count Basie's guitarist, Freddie Green, is alleged to never have played more than 3 note chords, and viewed the 6 strings of the guitar not to all be played at once, but rather as being sort of a menu from which he could pick and choose which 3 to play.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 24 Sep 2011 9:55 am views
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Super getting the various views on the subject.
As far as I know, there are no recordings of this 13 structure.
DS...nice of you re PICTIONARY offer. If you have to stop and think in the game when the ball is coming to you, you AIN'T no shortstop!
MP...7th based and 6th based tuning's have their own characteristics. The 13 series will be no different.One interesting sound is the Shearing chord sound...with the 6th of the chord used below the root. That is natural in the 13 series as one string below every root is a 6th, just as one string above the root is a 3rd of some kind. The root can be found on every string hence dropping the bar index finger in front of the bar to block the 3rd (or others) is a snap...makes the chord usable as a major or a minor and solves the "I don't like non tweaked 3rds problem".
"You don't", or you can't? Three note, four note, and 5 note groupings are common to the Jazz and orchestra guitarist. If you don't have it, you can't use it, if you do have it, you can choose.
If anyone wants to see the details and the chord list blowout just email me and ask for the CM13 Excel spreadsheet. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 24 Sep 2011 10:41 am
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Ed, I should have written "you don't need to." If you're playing with other musicians, it's not necessary to play all the notes in the chord. Let the bass play play the root.
The C6 "Boo wah" pedal gives a #9 chord. The same chord can be implied with the A pedal and strings 5,6,and 9 on the E9, (In my case it's strings 5,6,and 8 lowered a full step,) and again with the B pedal and strings 3,4,and 5, with the 5th string lowered half a step.
In both cases, both the root and the fifth of the chord are missing. But if other instruments are playing them, they are not missed.
In my opinion, in a band situation, if everybody is playing everything it can sound cluttered. I think it sounds better when the bass player plays the root, the guitar or keyboard plays in the mid range, and the steel soars above them in the high register.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 24 Sep 2011 1:02 pm
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| It is interesting to me that Richard said in the link that Ed gave "in general, a single inversion of a given chord can be found at only one or two disparate places upon the neck of the instrument - almost regardless of copedant" and I take exception to that. In even the E9th tuning, in 8 frets one can find the same major chord on 5 of them with multiple inversions on each fret and with a just a few changes one can obtain the major, minor, and 7th on at least 4 of the 5 (I've not looked carefully at the 9th string root position to see what it would take to accomplish that same feat). This is the most marvelous instrument that I've ever had the pleasure to play- thanks to all those that freely give of their time to help the rest of us~~. |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 25 Sep 2011 9:40 am chord location in/on CM13
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To address the build aspect as affected by changer complexity as a function of coped/setup complexity...here is a shot of the changer end with the CM13EX1 changes installed. The bell cranks can be shortened, the tone rods made thinner, the body made thinner (shorter aprons)...worth considering?
The mechanics would only be of advantage if the coped/setup were musically in demand (economics of scale). To be in demand, setup must meet the musical needs as seen by the studio players and the producers. Few producers want the risk of being pioneers (they are the ones with the arrows in their backs). That being the case, PSG studio players have no motivation to risk trying a new setup with a new sound.
Some have brought up questions about the amount, type, and location of chords on/in the CM13 series. We will show the location of C four tone chords using four forms of the 13 series (M13, 13, m13, and mM13) to give some insight...you judge.
Here is the CM13 setup arranged to show the interval progression vs. activated changes.
Here is the CM13 setup arranged to show the usage of the common E9 P&Ls to activate the changes.
First neck chart = neck location of the Cxx four tone chords for M13 activated.
Second neck chart = neck location of the Cxx four tone chords for 13 activated.
Third neck chart = neck location of the Cxx four tone chords for m13 activated.
Fourth neck chart = neck location of Cxx four tone chords for mM13 activated.
Compare these to what is available in the E9, C6, E9/B6 etc tuning structures. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 25 Sep 2011 10:07 am
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Ed, I disagree with you on the need for a new tuning (although I mught change my mind if I heard something played on it,) But I really like your idea of an integrating the changer and tuning pegs on the left side of the guitar. This could lead to several new ways of making the strings come in contact with the body at the bridge end, improving the tone and and increase the guitar's sustain and resonance.
Again, just my opinion, but I think this is a potentially more valuable contribution to our instrument's evolution than any new tuning.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 25 Sep 2011 10:36 am Need? who said that?
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MP...the word "need" is yours not mine. This is an "option" that as far as I know has not been explored.
"Any" rules out anything. When does adding changes = a new tuning? |
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Ron Castle
From:
West Hurley,NY
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Posted 26 Sep 2011 6:29 am Parallelism
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Altho it is obvious that the 13th setup can get all flavors/extensions of chords,
a good thing for modern music, it seems to me that it would increase the tendency
of the PSG (& non-pedal too) of parallel chording as “chord solo” (or harmonized melody)rather than unique moving voices as played by regular guitarists and pianos and even vibes and harp.
This tendency of steel comes about by the “stacked thirds” arrangement of strings mostly and also the limitations of using a bar.
A major deficiency of steel, in my opinion, has been difficulty of contrapuntal voicing.
Contrary motion is a major aspect of music and it is more difficult to achieve on psg.
It seems to me that to lessen the tendency of parallel chord voicing and increase contrary motion, one would want to increase the number of whole step changes, especially whole tone lowers.
So,
With all due respect, in my not so humble opinion, I do not see the 13th string setup as an enhancement to the psg’ capabilities.
sorry for being so long winded |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 26 Sep 2011 6:48 am Tunings and setups
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Hi Ron,
There are many "ways" to make music on stringed instruments. You have pointed to one preference. The PSG has many possibilities for tuning's and setups...the 13 series is offered as one possibility, as far as I know, not explored to date.
May I suggest that you add a version of your preferred approach and maybe that will help break the E9, C6, Nashville/Bakersfield headlock on the instrument.
As far as combining the old with the new, look for what I did on my 4X5 with 13 series setup. It has elements of the 7th based E9 and the 6th based A6 and B6 plus the EM13 included.
The general thrust here is toward the electronic changer (a work in progress here) in which any of these possibilities may be invoked as desired without mechanical programming.
I am obviously more "long winded" than you...hard to say these things in a few words.
Look forward to an example of your preferences.
Afterthought Ron...because all intervals are raised and lowered a halftone, it is possible to have full tone steps on any note.
Edp |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 26 Sep 2011 10:00 am chords and scales
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Re the above neck diagrams...although presented in terms of four tone C chords, realize that the scale note locations are also there = pick your pockets. For those that may not realize it, each of the four tone chords shown probably has a 6th interval one string below it, and some sort of 9th one string above it.
Road runner picking (ala John Coltrane/Miles Davis style) usually requires being on the chord (or it's extension) note on the beat...non beat notes = flavor to suit. Your on beat notes are in the chord...know where the chord is, and it's extensions, and you have the beat notes all lined up and waiting.
The previous neck diagrams showed chords and scale note location for the four basic 13 series forms, but just for the C root. Here are four "chord location" diagrams for all roots in the tuning/setup. Only those for the same change activation's used above are shown.
These show all the chords and extensions for each string string in the structure as root when invoked with the changes for the basic four 13 series master chords.
You might notice that when you have CM13 invoked, you also get G13, and Dm13 using other strings as root. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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